[Science] - Free will could all be an illusion

Sam Harris has actually published some work on this subject that I've found interesting. I'd recommend his book "Free Will" if you haven't read it.

The point I think really boils down to a combination of the problem of inception and external influences.

If it's cold you put on a sweater. Did you choose to put on the sweater? Why? Was it your past experience with being cold? Why did you choose a sweater and not turning up the thermostat? Why was that the best option? Where did the idea that you were cold come from in the first place? Was that a choice you made?

If we really analyze human action it can be hard to see what was a choice and what was simply a reaction to something else.
At what point are we just reacting based on experience?

Maybe a more important question is not is it really a free choice, but what experiences and training are we giving our brains so that they respond in a certain way? If we train ourselves to respond calmly to stressful situations it becomes easier over time. It's not necessarily free will to be calm, as much as we programmed ourselves to respond in that way. We can understand that our actions have consequences and if we desire a certain set of consequences then we program ourselves to react in a particular way to bring about that set of consequences. We still have the ability to effect change on the environment around us based on our ability to analyze past consequences and predict future ones.

But training is meant to prepare our bodies and minds for different situations, so we can decide which course is best in the least amount of time. When an animal has the ability to reason, they can then choose a best course. I see it in the training of dogs. Some dogs have to be trained until they do something automatically the same every time, no matter what. Then there are some smart dogs that will intelligently disobey. A dog you tell to come, refusing because there is a danger in the way, then that dog finds the unforseen "other way around" do get to you, because, you know, he's really wanting to obey.

This is what you would be looking for in a free will experiment. Telling a subject to do one thing, and them intelligently doing something else. It is those people that think outside the box that (I think) prove we have free will.

And yet what made them think or act outside of the box? And what made the box? If someone acts differently than expected, does that mean that there was some sort of will tinkering with their brains or may it be that our expectations were based on insufficient information? I am way too fallible to assume that I could not have simply miscalculated and instead something other than the physically necessary went on. A suspension of natural law to me sounds far less believable than human error on my own part.
In the end it boils down what we mean by free will. We can mean the ability to act in unexpected or seemingly unintuitive ways, and then any example of it would be... well, an example of it. The statement that free will is a reality would become something of a triviality at that point, and I reckon many would not say that this is all they mean by the effectively defunct term.
Those who read Sam Harris' Free Will will recognize my reasoning as heavily influenced by it. Yet, in all fairness, Sam does presume a specific definition of free will, one that is so strict as to require some kind of implied supernatural component and to make a case against that is about as easy as to make a case in favour of reasoned decisions. Disagreement then really boils down to false equivocation. The kind of free will that does not seem to exist is not the same as the kind of free will that is borderline undeniable and we are doing the discussion something of a disservice by referring to both as "free will" when what we mean are so different things.

No summary on his definition?



tease...

I think the idea of what we are trying to discuss, is as 'loose" (i know that doesnt set right with you, lol) as the idea of what we mean by "destiny" or "predestination"....

These are always the two competing ideas in my melon...

You are right, (obviously, ), it may never be known, and it doesnt really matter, but I find the internal wrestling match fun, and the discussion equally so...

I would say most of us argue from personal definitions, thinking we are all sorta similar in our understanding, but, trying to define this, to come to a common denominator, likens back to your and my discussion on 'faith'... I notice a similar 'vein' in certain conversations of mine, and am noticing it in others as I keep watching, and that is "we only look to find a common denominator to discuss a topic, when it suits us", and instead, we should always agree on a common denominator before we begin...

"Set the terms" of the "debate", lol...

Back on topic...;

My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"

Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."

So what if some things are generated randomly and are neither chosen by agents nor are predestined? It would neither fall under free will nor under lack thereof, yet it is at least not on the surface internally contradictory. So it must either be a third category or a part of at least one of the others. Then of course we need to decide whether these categories have any overlap with each other. It would seem, unless we define them as disjoint, that an awareness and conscious decision, for instance, can still be the part of a predestined fate or a result of random influences in part or in full...

Jestor wrote: My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"

Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."

I would agree to those definitions. I would add to the first one that we do that independently of any predetermination. I would only add that because one could say that even in a world that is predetermined we might feel as though we are making choices when they are actually predetermined.

Well, this is my logic trail....

1. I was born, I had no choice, I will die, this is my destiny... I cannot escape it... I am predestined, regardless of anything I do between these two points....

2. However, i can have some say in how, and (to a degree) when it happens, eating right, looking both ways crossing a street, no pistols in the mouth... Treating my fellow humans nicely....

But, there is no escaping this destiny...
__________________________

3. I want to be happy...

4. My choices I make today, will get me to that destiny, should I apply intelligent decisions to my path...

In this way, based on my definitions, I have a free will to make this happen, or the free will to not make it happen, and hope my 'destiny' is to be happy....

It is due to this version, that I say, "I have the destiny to live out the results of my free will"... Although I say it different each time I say it, lol.... :lol:...

My take on free will is that it is not so much a cut and dried issue of either free will OR destiny, but a range of probability that narrows down the closer you get to any given event. Weather prediction is a good example of this. Even the supercomputers that have millions of inputs and simulate the entire planet cannot determine the exact course a storm will take. It should be a mathematically predictable course, but any storm can suddenly turn at the last minute and do something totally unexpected (I'm not saying the storm has free will, but it's an illustration of how something can appear to be destiny, and yet behave in a totally unpredictable manner).
When a choice has been made, we can look back on it and identify the apparent causes or motivations that led to that choice. I think this is what reinforces the notion of free will. We can see that it was ultimately our feelings or ideas that led to make that choice, therefore, it must have been my free will. But just like the storm, even if you could see all of the inputs, including a person's entire life experience and all outside influences, they still could surprise you and do something totally unexpected.
That being said, I believe that almost everything we do does follow a plan or "destiny," but within that destiny, we have the ability to rebel and do "our own thing" any time we choose.
The only possibility that I can see that free will does not really exist is in the notion that God knows everything that will ever happen and therefore has, technically, already happened in his mind. However, even within this apparent path of destiny, it could be that God just knows the entire multiplicity of timelines that could play out as a result of human choices. So, he knows what will happen no matter what we choose. He knows the entire timeline after that choice and knows everything that will happen with either choice.
In any case, I know that we are responsible for the individual choices that we make even if it is all predestined. And from a spiritual perspective, it behooves us to make choices that will lead to a better situation for our neighbor and for ourselves.

You know… :huh:

I may be predestine to believe that I have free will.

But, I may just think that I have the free will to believe that I have a destiny. :pinch:

Of course, it could just be that I was predestined to believe I have the free will to be believe that I am predestined to believe my free will is destined! :ohmy:




Wait a sec…

Now I’m all confused! :ohmy:

hahahahhahha :woohoo: :laugh: :silly:

CableSteele, I have a very similar outlook on life as what you've said!

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