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[Science] - Free will could all be an illusion
- OB1Shinobi
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which may not seem much but it actually makes a pretty big difference
like if i dont get the promotion at work i can choose to say "i get screwed over every time, i hate my job, i hate my life, i hate the unfairness of the world"
i can also choose to say "i didnt get it this time, but that doesnt mean i cant. let me find out why i didnt get it and see what i can do to address that so that i will get the promotion next time. i made it this far in life and in my career, i will keep working hard and trusting myself and i will make it further"
or whatever
we talk to ourselves about ourselves regardless (that part isnt a choice)
we do have some degree of freedom in what exactly we choose to say
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What about the idea of free will is so plausible as to put the burden of proof on those doubting it?
As we learned in life, (and the IP points out the lesson for those who are unaware of the lesson), sometimes we understand something, by learning what it is not...
So, I think the authors of this study, which I have not read either, I am simply surmising their intent from my own curiosity and musings, are merely testing to see IF it exists in ways in which they can...
Whichever way they'd set out to prove, that it does or does not exist, they are trying to come to one stand or another, and then will have to hold that stance against those who will inevitably test their hypothesis...
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i cannot "free will" my legs to grow back or "free wil" my adhd to chill tfo, these things are biological and exist at a level beyond personal control
so there are certain of my motives which are out of my control, and its arguable that if the motive is powerful enough, like the adhd, maybe, then the effort to achieve it is pretty much irresistable
adhd may not be the best example but lets just say that our biology provdes irresistable motive in certain instances
and then if the motive itself is out of ones control, and the motive was of sufficient strength as to be irresistable, then in that instance there was no real choice - no free will in the matter
when it comes to stress, everyone has a breaking point
there is im sure a definite limit for each person in response to any particular kind of stress where even one more "unit" would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back
and at the most basic level of hard biology, self talk may not have much effect on where that limit is
but in terms of an individuals self limitations limitations, i dont have any studies at hand but theres a well accepted correlation between positive self talk and the ability to function under stress
to the point that the same individual, under the same circumstances, can handle stress more effectively, which is to say can perform a given task more effectively under stress when they understand the importance of self talk and know how to regulate it, and consciously choose to regulate it
self talk is something that has a strong level of routine associated with it
we tend to repeat the same things to ourselves regularly, and we tend to repeat the same kinds of things to ourselves in the circumstances of our lives
its automatic for most of us that we talk to ourselves, and once weve established a pattern for the type of things we say, that pattern kicks in automatically, and its kind of a script that we replay with only superficial adjustments
so we dont really seem to have a choice about the pattern being there, and we dont have a choice about that it will affect us, and to some extent we already have a script which we automatically start running, like a program on a computer , and the main themes of that script are already in place
where we have some free will is in that we can introduce new elements into that script, through mindfulness and repitition
theres definitely a moment of choice in many instances of stress where we can choose the general theme of the script we tell ourselves
if that is free will or not i dont know, i guess it depends on how we want to define free will, but i know, or i believe rather, from my own experience that there is a moment where things can go either way, and maybe i dont have control over WHY i choose one way over another, but ive certainly had - and continue to have the experience of realizing that there was/is a choice for me in how i to talk to myself about whats going on, and that choice makes a difference in my responses
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I guess, since science is only about observable phenomena, then it is appropriate that they did not include "fantasy abilities" such as precognition or telepathy in their interpretation of the results. I think Rupert Sheldrake might have something to say about this.
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the short version of this is that we all have established patterns of self talk which basically just flip themselves on throughout the day and under different circumstances, we probably cant change the fact that our personalities create these patterns and we dont so much just choose to erase the old pattern as much as that we can choose to introduce new elements into the existing patters which eventually will produce new patterns, which will eventually produce new behaviors
which actually isnt saying any more than i did the first time i mentioned it
ive been working to keep my posts from getting too wordy lately but i guess this last time i just couldnt help myself
OB1Shinobi wrote: it does seem self evident that i have at least the free will to get up and walk to the next room or to stay sitting here at this table - if i wanted to i could choose to walk to te next state even
i cannot "free will" my legs to grow back or "free wil" my adhd to chill tfo, these things are biological and exist at a level beyond personal control
so there are certain of my motives which are out of my control, and its arguable that if the motive is powerful enough, like the adhd, maybe, then the effort to achieve it is pretty much irresistable
adhd may not be the best example but lets just say that our biology provdes irresistable motive in certain instances
and then if the motive itself is out of ones control, and the motive was of sufficient strength as to be irresistable, then in that instance there was no real choice - no free will in the matter
when it comes to stress, everyone has a breaking point
there is im sure a definite limit for each person in response to any particular kind of stress where even one more "unit" would be the proverbial straw that broke the camels back
and at the most basic level of hard biology, self talk may not have much effect on where that limit is
but in terms of an individuals self limitations limitations, i dont have any studies at hand but theres a well accepted correlation between positive self talk and the ability to function under stress
to the point that the same individual, under the same circumstances, can handle stress more effectively, which is to say can perform a given task more effectively under stress when they understand the importance of self talk and know how to regulate it, and consciously choose to regulate it
self talk is something that has a strong level of routine associated with it
we tend to repeat the same things to ourselves regularly, and we tend to repeat the same kinds of things to ourselves in the circumstances of our lives
its automatic for most of us that we talk to ourselves, and once weve established a pattern for the type of things we say, that pattern kicks in automatically, and its kind of a script that we replay with only superficial adjustments
so we dont really seem to have a choice about the pattern being there, and we dont have a choice about that it will affect us, and to some extent we already have a script which we automatically start running, like a program on a computer , and the main themes of that script are already in place
where we have some free will is in that we can introduce new elements into that script, through mindfulness and repitition
theres definitely a moment of choice in many instances of stress where we can choose the general theme of the script we tell ourselves
if that is free will or not i dont know, i guess it depends on how we want to define free will, but i know, or i believe rather, from my own experience that there is a moment where things can go either way, and maybe i dont have control over WHY i choose one way over another, but ive certainly had - and continue to have the experience of realizing that there was/is a choice for me in how i to talk to myself about whats going on, and that choice makes a difference in my responses
People are complicated.
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"Neuroscience and Free Will Are Rethinking Their Divorce"
Back in the 1980s, the American scientist Benjamin Libet made a surprising discovery that appeared to rock the foundations of what it means to be human. He recorded people’s brain waves as they made spontaneous finger movements while looking at a clock, with the participants telling researchers the time at which they decided to waggle their fingers. Libet’s revolutionary finding was that the timing of these conscious decisions was consistently preceded by several hundred milliseconds of background preparatory brain activity (known technically as “the readiness potential”).
The implication was that the decision to move was made nonconsciously, and that the subjective feeling of having made this decision is tagged on afterward. In other words, the results implied that free will as we know it is an illusion — after all, how can our conscious decisions be truly free if they come after the brain has already started preparing for them?
For years, various research teams have tried to pick holes in Libet’s original research. It’s been pointed out, for example, that it’s pretty tricky for people to accurately report the time that they made their conscious decision. But, until recently, the broad implications of the finding have weathered these criticisms, at least in the eyes of many hard-nosed neuroscientists, and over the last decade or so his basic result has been replicated and built upon with ever more advanced methods such as fMRI and the direct recording of neuronal activity using implanted electrodes.
These studies all point in the same, troubling direction: We don’t really have free will. In fact, until recently, many neuroscientists would have said any decision you made was not truly free but actually determined by neural processes outside of your conscious control.
Luckily, for those who find this state of affairs philosophically (or existentially) perplexing, things are starting to look up. Thanks to some new breakthrough studies, including one published last month in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences by researchers in Germany, there’s now some evidence pointing in the other direction: The neuroscientists are backtracking on past bold claims and painting a rather more appealing account of human autonomy. We may have more control over certain processes than those initial experiments indicated.
The German neuroscientists took a different approach from past work, using a form of brain-computer integration to see whether participants could cancel a movement after the onset of the nonconscious preparatory brain activity identified by Libet. If they could, it would be a sign that humans can consciously intervene and “veto” processes that neuroscience has previously considered automatic and beyond willful control.
The participants’ task started off simply enough: They had to press a foot pedal as quickly as possible whenever they saw a green light and cancel this movement whenever they saw a red light. Things got trickier when the researchers put the red light under the control of a computer that was monitoring the participants’ own brain waves. Whenever the computer detected signs of nonconscious preparatory brain activity, it switched on the red light. If this preparatory activity is truly a signal of actions that are beyond conscious control, the participants should have been incapable of responding to these sudden red lights. In fact, in many cases the participants were able to cancel the nonconscious preparatory brain activity and stop their foot movement before it even began.
Now, there was a point of no return — red lights that appeared too close (less than about one-quarter of a second) to the beginning of a foot movement could not be completely inhibited — there simply wasn’t time for the new cancellation signal to overtake the earlier command to move. But still, the principle stands — these results suggest at least some of the activity identified by Libet can, in fact, be vetoed by conscious will.
“A person’s decisions are not at the mercy of unconscious and early brain waves,” the lead researcher, Dr. John-Dylan Haynes of Charité - Universitätsmedizin in Berlin, said in the study’s press release. “They are able to actively intervene in the decision-making process and interrupt a movement. Previously people have used the preparatory brain signals to argue against free will. Our study now shows that the freedom is much less limited than previously thought.”
This new finding comes on the back of research by French neuroscientists published in 2012 in PNAS that also challenged the way Libet’s seminal work is usually interpreted. These researchers believe that the supposedly nonconscious preparatory brain activity identified by Libet is really just part of a fairly random ebb and flow of background neural activity, and that movements occur when this activity crosses a certain threshold. By this account, people’s willful movements should be quicker when they’re made at a time that just happens to coincide with when the background ebb and flow of activity is on a high point.
And that’s exactly what the French team found. They recorded participants’ brain waves as they repeatedly pressed a button with their finger, sometimes spontaneously at times of their own choosing, and other times in response to a randomly occurring click sound. The researchers found that their participants were much quicker to respond to the click sounds when the sounds happened to occur just as this random background brain activity was reaching a peak.
Based on this result from 2012 and a similar finding in a study with rats published in 2014, the lead researcher of the 2012 study, Aaron Schurger at INSERM in Paris, and two colleagues have written in their field’s prestige journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences that it’s time for a new perspective on Libet’s results — they say that their results call “for a reevaluation and reinterpretation of a large body of work” and that for 50 years their field may have been “measuring, mapping and analyzing what may turn out to be a reliable accident: the cortical readiness potential.”
And like their counterparts in Germany, these neuroscientists say the new picture is much more in keeping with our intuitive sense of our free will. When we form a vague intention to move, they explain, this mind-set feeds into the background ebb and flow of neural activity, but the specific decision to act only occurs when the neural activity passes a key threshold — and our all-important subjective feeling of deciding happens at this point or a brief instant afterward. “All this leaves our common sense picture largely intact,” they write.
I’ll leave you to decide whether to believe them or not.
Dr. Christian Jarrett (@Psych_Writer), a Science of Us contributing writer, is editor of the British Psychological Society’s Research Digest blog. His latest book is Great Myths of the Brain.
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The paper - which as a matter of exceptional courtesy the article bothers linking to - makes clear on the onset that they are were triggering the veto by another input. That is as of yet of course the only way to test anything like this for if they gave the subjects "a choice" they'd have no control, no means to correlate the results with pretty much anything. Nothing about either the methods or the results implies anything about either the existence or the extent of free will because - and I will keep insisting on this - free will is neither testible nor even defined. Therefore no study can, even in principle get any closer to a statement about it, nor is any of them that could stand any peer scrutiny attempting to. Not only that, but it turns out there is even a non-zero time after which what has been decided by the brain seconds ago can no longer be cancelled, implying quite the opposite of free agency.The actual researchers wrote: To summarize, our results suggest that humans can still cancel or veto a movement even after onset of the RP. This is possible until a point of no return around 200 ms before movement onset. However, even after the onset of the movement, it is possible to alter and cancel the movement as it unfolds.
Popular science media cares about clicks though, not about facts, but for any of us who are either interested or versed in neuroscience, the study is available unabridged and for free for public review at the Journal website itself:
http://www.pnas.org/content/113/4/1080.full
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iow not only do we have a window for making the choice to begin with but we also have a window for changing our minds
i agree that the lack of definition for "free will" makes the topic --- difficult
is there something particular that you think of when you say it?
to me its something like "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"
i dont know how scientifically solid that it, but i think its heading in the right direction
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The point I think really boils down to a combination of the problem of inception and external influences.
If it's cold you put on a sweater. Did you choose to put on the sweater? Why? Was it your past experience with being cold? Why did you choose a sweater and not turning up the thermostat? Why was that the best option? Where did the idea that you were cold come from in the first place? Was that a choice you made?
If we really analyze human action it can be hard to see what was a choice and what was simply a reaction to something else.
At what point are we just reacting based on experience?
Maybe a more important question is not is it really a free choice, but what experiences and training are we giving our brains so that they respond in a certain way? If we train ourselves to respond calmly to stressful situations it becomes easier over time. It's not necessarily free will to be calm, as much as we programmed ourselves to respond in that way. We can understand that our actions have consequences and if we desire a certain set of consequences then we program ourselves to react in a particular way to bring about that set of consequences. We still have the ability to effect change on the environment around us based on our ability to analyze past consequences and predict future ones.
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This is what you would be looking for in a free will experiment. Telling a subject to do one thing, and them intelligently doing something else. It is those people that think outside the box that (I think) prove we have free will.
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In the end it boils down what we mean by free will. We can mean the ability to act in unexpected or seemingly unintuitive ways, and then any example of it would be... well, an example of it. The statement that free will is a reality would become something of a triviality at that point, and I reckon many would not say that this is all they mean by the effectively defunct term.
Those who read Sam Harris' Free Will will recognize my reasoning as heavily influenced by it. Yet, in all fairness, Sam does presume a specific definition of free will, one that is so strict as to require some kind of implied supernatural component and to make a case against that is about as easy as to make a case in favour of reasoned decisions. Disagreement then really boils down to false equivocation. The kind of free will that does not seem to exist is not the same as the kind of free will that is borderline undeniable and we are doing the discussion something of a disservice by referring to both as "free will" when what we mean are so different things.
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tease...
I think the idea of what we are trying to discuss, is as 'loose" (i know that doesnt set right with you, lol) as the idea of what we mean by "destiny" or "predestination"....
These are always the two competing ideas in my melon...
You are right, (obviously,
I would say most of us argue from personal definitions, thinking we are all sorta similar in our understanding, but, trying to define this, to come to a common denominator, likens back to your and my discussion on 'faith'... I notice a similar 'vein' in certain conversations of mine, and am noticing it in others as I keep watching, and that is "we only look to find a common denominator to discuss a topic, when it suits us", and instead, we should always agree on a common denominator before we begin...
"Set the terms" of the "debate", lol...
Back on topic...;
My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"
Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."
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Jestor wrote: My personal definition would follow along with OB1's; "the recognition of available options and the ability to choose between them" or maybe "the ability to recognize potential outcomes, choose one which is preferable, develop steps to achieve it, and follow those steps"
Versus my definition of "the lack of free will" or as I have always referred to it, "predestination", which is "the idea that everything already has a destiny laid out, and we are moving toward it..."
I would agree to those definitions. I would add to the first one that we do that independently of any predetermination. I would only add that because one could say that even in a world that is predetermined we might feel as though we are making choices when they are actually predetermined.
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1. I was born, I had no choice, I will die, this is my destiny... I cannot escape it... I am predestined, regardless of anything I do between these two points....
2. However, i can have some say in how, and (to a degree) when it happens, eating right, looking both ways crossing a street, no pistols in the mouth... Treating my fellow humans nicely....
But, there is no escaping this destiny...
__________________________
3. I want to be happy...
4. My choices I make today, will get me to that destiny, should I apply intelligent decisions to my path...
In this way, based on my definitions, I have a free will to make this happen, or the free will to not make it happen, and hope my 'destiny' is to be happy....
It is due to this version, that I say, "I have the destiny to live out the results of my free will"... Although I say it different each time I say it, lol.... :lol:...
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When a choice has been made, we can look back on it and identify the apparent causes or motivations that led to that choice. I think this is what reinforces the notion of free will. We can see that it was ultimately our feelings or ideas that led to make that choice, therefore, it must have been my free will. But just like the storm, even if you could see all of the inputs, including a person's entire life experience and all outside influences, they still could surprise you and do something totally unexpected.
That being said, I believe that almost everything we do does follow a plan or "destiny," but within that destiny, we have the ability to rebel and do "our own thing" any time we choose.
The only possibility that I can see that free will does not really exist is in the notion that God knows everything that will ever happen and therefore has, technically, already happened in his mind. However, even within this apparent path of destiny, it could be that God just knows the entire multiplicity of timelines that could play out as a result of human choices. So, he knows what will happen no matter what we choose. He knows the entire timeline after that choice and knows everything that will happen with either choice.
In any case, I know that we are responsible for the individual choices that we make even if it is all predestined. And from a spiritual perspective, it behooves us to make choices that will lead to a better situation for our neighbor and for ourselves.
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I may be predestine to believe that I have free will.
But, I may just think that I have the free will to believe that I have a destiny. :pinch:
Of course, it could just be that I was predestined to believe I have the free will to be believe that I am predestined to believe my free will is destined! :ohmy:
Wait a sec…
Now I’m all confused! :ohmy:
hahahahhahha :woohoo: :laugh: :silly:
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