Caterpillars Blowing Smoke

When one finds or takes offense, I think it strikes a nerve in the belief system or attacks a certain attached feeling. Or an unconfronted truth which one attempts to mask.

My opinion/perspective/focus at the moment....

I think it is more of a how, than a why.
Why be offended?
How does one find offense...

I'm not offended, fact I am to the point where I expect as such. I used to be offended, when he was a Council member and was tolerated because of necessity, which left a real bad taste in my mouth before I left. It was my stupidity to make the assumption that Council members hold themselves to at least a somewhat honorable method for expressing themselves, especially in front of minors no doubt...

What makes you think you have a right to any more of someone's opinion than what they choose to give you?

I give them my time and effort... I think it's not too much to ask they be honest, forthright and genuine (which I am also)....


As to forming relationships.... There is no fake in a relationship and no relationships in fakeness. How do you guys make friends/partner/spouses?

By the opposite of fake,
real...
Being real...
keeping it real.

I see this as an author who has rejected some of the outcome of their works....

I am not surprised. Is what it is....

:whistle:

Sweet. Is it being used as a stand in for polite?

Real (blunt, honest, sincere) is not the opposite of polite (kind, civil, compassionate). I am troubled when I hear that. One can be completely honest without being rude. The truth is not what is harsh. The unskilled holder of the truth is harsh. Especially if the truth is difficult, it should be delivered with care. Complete, clear, compassionate.

If you cannot deliver a difficult truth in a respectful manner then the fault lies not with the truth but with the poor skill level of the communicator. A great deal of work to be done there.

And all of this is predicated on the notion that the truth is inherently harsh. That seems to leave out a substantial portion of life. If your truth leaves out the beautiful, or at least emotionally neutral, elements of life, it seems not to serve.

We are moving into black & white thinking here. Very rigid. To echo Khaos from a bit earlier, I do not require that you agree with me. I ask only that you think it over. When we say that we a keeping it real when we are rude, are we not surrendering our critical faculties, our agency, to resentment and an angry mask over our fear?

I have been looking over this thread and really don’t know what to think about it. :blink:

My first though is that many people seem to be making a big “to do” about a lot of nothing. :whistle:

If that was really Khaos’s last post here than I believe it will be our loss. I have always known him as a valiant antagonist. I do not share all of his views but he often posed questions or statements which caused a further examination of some aspect of the topic. And that is very healthy; rather anyone likes it or not.

Many of us, all of sometimes, post things which are not received well by others. Sure, some do it more than others. Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong? :S

There will always be that one person that says things that is not popular. Shoot, sometimes I think that guy is me! And there will always be those who claim to just be brutally honest when everyone else just sees it as being brutal. Guess what… that is your opinion! You are welcome to it but it is just that, your opinion.

Proteus hit the nail on the head, “why does it bother you so much?” :laugh:

We each tend to get very confident and self-righteous when we are in a group that we all share some common idea or goal. And ganging up on people should not be our way. I don’t care who answered what question, or what they responded to, or any of that noise. When I read a post I ask myself, were there any rules broken? Then I address the material of the post. I try to figure out the tone of the individual and ascertain the message that was attempted to be conveyed. If the reply bothered me, I let it go and move on the next thing. I can always come back to it later. I don’t need to prove that I’m right. I certainly don’t need others to prove that they are right either. Especially since most of what is shared is personal opinion. There is no right or wrong! There’s only yours and mine.

I’m sure there were other things I saw in this thread I wanted to cover, but I’ve probably said enough to get on plenty of people’s nerves as it is without continuing on. :dry:

And if I have written something that does bother you then perhaps you should ask yourself why! I have not used names or specific instances. Just things that I have noticed. I have not called anyone out… so why would it bother you? So if it does, think about it.

ren wrote: For example if Arcade tells me "sweet" things instead of what he really thinks, what he does is either:
-Hide his true opinion from me on purpose (which is alarming, especially for the kind of stuff we discuss at totjo. These aren't negotiations with world peace at stake)
-Believe that I am in some way not capable of understanding what he truly means to say.
-Rob me of an opportunity to give some thoughts to his ideas and react to them (positively or negatively).

IMO your wrong there, and that could be the basis of why that behaviour annoys some people. Perhaps re-evaluate and adjust if you want better results, as what I see is a presumption by you to know someone might be hiding an opinion simply because they adjust their speech to facilitate calm discussion. Your belief in that particular logic structure (which is a direct victim mentality assumption of 1. other person bad, 2. other person not trusting me, 3. other person stealing from me) could generate an defensive emotional momentum within you, causing you to blame them for what really is an entirely imagined insult, IMO. The stories we whisper to ourselves quietly are the loudest sounds we'll hear.

One big disfunctional family. Bring the shoutbox back, or get us tickets to the Springer show....lol

Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

ren wrote: Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

You ok ren? I imagine you realise your insulting people in public so I wonder why.... its not needed to have to achieve the discussion.

ren wrote: Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

Actually, I think what hes asking is people not bother replying to him if their modus is to tear him down. Cade loves to talk to people, loves to learn and gets a kick out of stimulating conversation. Which is pretty much what we would all like.

Hes highlighting something that clearly other members of the temple feel too.

It personally doesnt bug me. But then I am bolshy enough to respond in kind, not everyone is.

Negative emotions are the devil, your being controlled by the agitator, repent!!!! :S :huh:

... but seriously, it can be a result that increased compassion arises from spiritual training (it did with me) and so it's often in the mystic's path to think and act in a certain way (from my experience and observations at least). If some people find that offensive, and want to get angry about a persons compassion and restraint, then I'd rather ignore them too!!!

So I dont think it's a sign of weakness necessarily, and perhaps its not that some people 'cant handle it' but choose not to handle it - for any number of reasons. The problem to me seems to be that the other person takes it personally as an insult, and uses it to get angry and defensive, seemingly as attention seeking behaviour or to reinforce some aspect of self image, unless its some deliberate agenda.

If it continues as a problem I guess an easy solution is for the really good conversation stuff to be posted in the Initiate and Apprentice forum sections, where access is more limited but of course it should never replace public discussion as the main discussion area, IMO.

Adder wrote:

ren wrote: For example if Arcade tells me "sweet" things instead of what he really thinks, what he does is either:
-Hide his true opinion from me on purpose (which is alarming, especially for the kind of stuff we discuss at totjo. These aren't negotiations with world peace at stake)
-Believe that I am in some way not capable of understanding what he truly means to say.
-Rob me of an opportunity to give some thoughts to his ideas and react to them (positively or negatively).

IMO your wrong there, and that could be the basis of why that behaviour annoys some people. Perhaps re-evaluate and adjust if you want better results, as what I see is a presumption by you to know someone might be hiding an opinion simply because they adjust their speech to facilitate calm discussion. Your belief in that particular logic structure (which is a direct victim mentality assumption of 1. other person bad, 2. other person not trusting me, 3. other person stealing from me) could generate an defensive emotional momentum within you, causing you to blame them for what really is an entirely imagined insult, IMO. The stories we whisper to ourselves quietly are the loudest sounds we'll hear.

Wow wow. I don't feel insulted by arcade. "most insulting" doesn't mean there is actual insult. I am well aware i have a strong aversion to things that are in some way altered for me, but let me tell you here and now, there is nothing you, me, or anyone else can do about it. (also I like it this way) I will never like people who aren't straight with me. I guess in a way I am very old fashioned, having been with only one woman in my adult life, having few friends instead of the plethoras other people have on facebook (on which I do not have an account, and I've been online 20 years now) and whatnot... I was a "socialite" of sorts once, and despite all the free sex I still thought it was all meaningless. But those other people, I have for life. If one of my friends were to believe something I do is wrong yet failed to notify me, I would stop considering them a friend. And it just doesn't happen.

Adder wrote:

ren wrote: Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

You ok ren? I imagine you realise your insulting people in public so I wonder why.... its not needed to have to achieve the discussion.

Where's the insult?

Implying Arcade wasn't being honest for starters...

ren wrote: Wow wow. I don't feel insulted by arcade. "most insulting" doesn't mean there is actual insult. I am well aware i have a strong aversion to things that are in some way altered for me, but let me tell you here and now, there is nothing you, me, or anyone else can do about it. (also I like it this way) I will never like people who aren't straight with me.

Ok, seems a bit contradictory, but if your not insulted then it would be less likely you'd be insulting other people perhaps....

ren wrote: Where's the insult?

Well no-one has complained of an insult to me yet, but it seems like your bullying Cade because you keep using him as an example in your posts, where you seem to be saying some people are fake and weak.

It 'seems' to me your either insulting him directly by saying he cant handle it in post 154169, or insulting him by passing on contents of a PM where he might have said he cant handle it. Likewise in post 154136, where your saying he changes his speech to protect his audience, which you call manipulative. I'm not aware of where he has said that in public here, I might have missed it, but it would seem your either making it up or passing on his words from a PM either way I find that behavior insulting.

Further, given that I know he is having a rough time now and asked to stop hearing from you - for you to continue to do this in a public forum makes me question your welfare and integrity.

Let me know if I'm wrong of course, but I do know you like to be told how people see it.

I've been away for a while so I can't appreciate the history to all this and I understand the need to step in and defend others when we feel it is required. However, I also think that we need to step back and be wary that it doesn't turn into this:

http://youtu.be/zrzMhU_4m-g

He's asked to stop hearing from me? We were Pming, less than 24 hours ago.

Also, if arcade tells me what i want to hear instead of telling me what he wants to say, he is being dishonest, in exactly the same way anyone else doing the exact same thing is dishonest.

As I said it is a discussion him and I have had before... There is supposed to be an impasse to be reached, but you guys are nowhere near that... Ah well.

You say me suggesting Arcade is dishonest in "hiding" his true ideas is an "insult". But people only get insulted by things which are true. You reaction here suggests that YOU believe it is true.

I've been waiting for someone to wonder about the balance between honesty with self and with others, and whether we should serve the self before or after others, etc.

But most importantly....

ren wrote:

I don't enjoy constant petty semantic debate, or to be made to feel like an idiot for having a new or unformed idea

See, whenever I come up with the crazy stuff i regularly come up with, whenever people are acting touchy-feely or go into that "oh ren is being gross again" mode I just shove it in their face even more.
I discussed this with arcade before actually. He's the kind of person who likes to adapt his speech to his audience, to uh, protect their feelings and such... Not realizing that to me, it's probably one of the most offensive things he could ever do.

Why do you guys keep on asking for it?

I've chatted with him several times, can't say I notice him being two faced, or any different then since he's been a member in the forums. You seem to place a whole lotta expectations and/or assumptions on people, let it go for christs sake...

I've never noticed him being two-faced either, or ever making such a claim about him.