Caterpillars Blowing Smoke

I do not get it Ren.
Would you care to explain what it is you like?
Please.

Jestor wrote:

Psyddhattha wrote: Personally I hope you don't end your time here Khaos. I enjoy reading your comments as your point of view seems very different to mine. You said the other day that you come here to learn and in my opinion you also teach. Yin yang anyone? I know we are all at different stages on our Jedi paths but the ego can really hinder learning. If people want to post their views without discussion then maybe it would be best to do this in their journal then others can simply thank them if they like it.

I quite agree, I hope Khaos hangs around...

But, let me ask, what about the timid person who finally gets up the nerve to post his/her thoughts? And wants input from many people, which can't happen in a journal...

They most likely cannot stand pressure that the logical minded individual can apply...

Even an innocent question can do this...

So, how does someone not so, maybe not as strong (yet) as they need to be, engage the community, and make posts when they can't quite figure out the answers?

Do we let them remain lost?

Or, as seems to be our (totjo) style, try to help them figure it out, and maybe help ourselves along the way?

I'm strong, Khaos and Gisteron, are strong, plenty of us here... But that's not everyone...

Shoot, Khaos and Gisteron (not them alone, just our most recent people of topics, lol) often times speak, and I have trouble understanding everything they say because I didn't learn about all the stuff they did...

And, lol, they have trouble understanding me... lol.. Cause I learned different stuff then them....

But, my point was, not everyone is ready for "critical logic", lol....

Don't get me wrong. I'm a "warm and fuzzy" type who has to look up every other word those guys (and others) use. I certainly don't advocate a lack of compassion. But as you said, even an innocent question could upset a timid person, so maybe there could be a specific section of the forum for timid people to post where their thoughts shouldn't be challenged but gently probed and encouraged or a spiritual section where science and logic is banned. There will always be those people who have a more aggressive discussion style and ultimately I guess the council has to decide whether or not they think it appropriate.

I'm not sure why it should be the norm for people's thoughts and opinions to be ripped apart... this is a religious temple after all, surely if we're talking about a "separate section" for a different approach we should have a "rip to shreds" section, rather than a "I'm so timid" section.

Sadly the prevailing atmosphere at the moment is one which does nothing to foster friendly conversation and discussion or encourage new members to join in, and that hasn't been the case for the majority of my 9 months at the Temple. The number of posts declined, and certain people with this particular "discussion" style seem to be posting more in that vacuum. Interesting...

But no, I don't agree the onus should be on the Council to decide what's appropriate, or on those with new or developing ideas in a learning environment to have to protect themselves from those who would eviscerate them. Sure, the Council should step in if people are being flat-out bullied but I'd compare it to a restaurant, a library, or a church... a certain unspoken style of behaviour is implied by the nature of the place. I'd expect people so confident of their own intelligence to display enough emotional or interpersonal maturity to understand when certain behaviour is repeatedly unwelcome themselves, without "the grown-ups" having to tell them off.

I can't speak for anyone else but I'm posting less because I don't enjoy constant petty semantic debate, or to be made to feel like an idiot for having a new or unformed idea. This place is a learning environment like a school; those who wander in and criticise others for not having a deep understanding are like adults walking into a school and sneering at the children. Many people here haven't been considering these ideas long or deeply enough to be candidates for a rigorous debate; any "victory" in such a debate is therefore entirely hollow and beneficial to neither party. I, and I'm sure others, don't feel comfortable presenting my developing beliefs in an environment where people are loudly and (my god how thoroughly) dismissive of ideas which haven't been thought through to the nth degree, and may not have reams of peer-reviewed documentation to back them up. We're here in part to discuss spiritual matters; if you don't believe in a spirit I'm not sure why you would feel the need to hammer that point home in every thread where it arises?

Some posters clearly seem to think this "negative testing" approach helpful and enjoyable in every instance, a "fire to kiln understanding". I don't. Mutual exploration of beliefs and friendly, open conversation have got me further in understanding than the dismissive smirks of those uninterested in developing their own perspective. There's a reason primary schools don't have debating teams, and most of the opinions presented here are in their infancy. I believe people who are new to an idea (true of almost every person here) are not fodder for others to test their ammunition on. In some people's eyes I expect that makes me seem complacent. In my eyes people who strive to judge, goad and dissect the nascent opinions and beliefs of others, particularly on such entirely subjective issues such as the nature of life, the universe and everything are naïve. Those who do so in a religious temple and learning environment are rude.

Yes, there are therefore rude people in every religion. Why shouldn't I wish for this religion to be better? It used to be, after all.

Recently Arcade started a thread and had to preface it with a disclaimer:

I would like this to remain a safe space where we can discuss our practices freely and without judgment.

Of course, I understand that he had to post this, given the current atmosphere. Unsurprisingly this safe space thread has gained more posts than almost any other area of the Temple lately, from more posters, some of whom haven't posted in other threads for quite a while. It is my opinion that a religious temple should automatically be a safe space where people are comfortable discussing their views. To come to a religious space for a faith which doesn't claim a firm scientific basis and apply the rigours of scientific reasoning and logical positivism to every post which catches your eye (eg Rickie's energy post) is, in my opinion, disrespectful.

Not to mention the fact several (not all) of the posters we are discussing seem to so easily fall into unkind and insulting language. Oh yes, "Other places have it worse!" - so what? Go there, if that's what you enjoy. I don't, nor do many others here. I'm sure it's easy to be dismissive when you're so certain of your viewpoint, but it encourages nothing except perhaps your own ego. If you have an opposing view, fine. Good! Interesting, and one of the reasons we're all here. But the intensity and tone with which a view is presented can suffocate conversation, stifle mutual learning and has, in my opinion, made this less of a "safe space" recently, where people only feel comfortable openly communicating via PM.

Which is sadly also rather ironic..

To my mind, there is a great deal to be said for not engaging in discussions that only seem to go in tight circles. In general, there may be a great deal to learn. However, if I am only posting my thought in the hopes that someone else will acquiesce, then maybe I just need to Jedi up and get over it. Adding to the general knowledge is a noble thing. One upping others on the details is masturbation, and there are more efficient means.

Another angle to consider: topics that are closely tied to identity ( god, for instance) do not budge in someone's mind due to a snarky comment. Nor to a civil one, for that matter. They generally shift due to significant life experiences that change a person. I suppose it is possible that reading the comments on a message board could be part of that, but I am inclined to doubt. Consider the limits on online communication. It limits our understanding and our impact.

The forums are an easy tool to misuse. If you want to share, go ahead. Crack jokes, be my guest. If you want to teach, have a ball.

If you only want to create an opportunity for someone to tell you that you are right, go kick rocks with flip flops. Better yet, Jedi up!

Personally I wouldn't attack another person within this temple or otherwise and I would do my best to support them if I thought they needed my help. I didn't realise this had become such a problem as I have only recently come back to the temple. Of course people should feel safe within these virtual walls and if that is not the case then some good may well come from this discussion. I tend to view an attack as an invitation to dance, and when I have the choice I sometimes join in and sometimes decline, but you're right tzb, not everyone feels that way. How about we have a section for verbal randoori then for those who wish to practice in the face of adversity.

Not targeted at anyone in particular but I find this quote inspiring at certain times:

"Let me tell you something you already know. The world ain’t all sunshine and rainbows. It’s a very mean and nasty place, and I don’t care how tough you are, it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain’t about how hard you hit. It’s about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward. That’s how winning is done! Now, if you know what you’re worth, then go out and get what you’re worth. But you gotta be willing to take the hits, and not pointing fingers saying you ain’t where you wanna be because of him, or her, or anybody. Cowards do that and that ain’t you. You’re better than that!" - Rocky Balboa

There is a point where sharing ones views simply to have them torn down by the same people for the same reasons becomes unproductive.

This place can be and frequently is a productive environment for sharing views; in my apprenticeship and via PM and Skype I am almost constantly stimulated by the ideas and perspectives of other members. I guess I just miss the discussions this forum used to foster, where 4 pages of posts would pop up on a thread in a day (from more than 3 or 4 of the same people debating the same things) and people weren't necessarily so timid, defensive or dismissive.

There are many great Jedi active at this temple, who thoroughly embody the values and ideals of the path; sadly browsing the public areas of this forum lately you wouldn't realise.

Psyddhattha, Tzb, I absolutely agree with the sentiment of what youre saying

but, I would hesitate to segregate people into levels at which they feel comfortable with discussion.

While I dont think that deliberately tearing down peoples thoughts and ideas is acceptable, of helpful, learning by "practice in the face of adversity" is not necessarily a bad thing. What sort of experiences do we prepare people for if everyone is wrapped in cotton wool? How much do we learn in a comfort zone? While its said that discretion is the better part of valor, I don't think that includes hiding away from the forums because we're afraid of someone on the internet disagreeing with us or being unpleasant. (totally not endorsing people being like that btw)

I think there needs to be balance.

Yes, having difficult discussions and dealing with people or views unlike our own is incredibly valuable, and can also be painful. But we (and I include myself here because I have had some EPIC tanties when dealing with things I dont like on the forum) also need to have an awareness of our responses to things. Perhaps sometimes we are too emotionally vested in our opinions and beliefs. And need to really consider why. That doesnt mean agreeing with your verbal opponents ideas (or crap :whistle: ), it means asking "why does this upset me, honestly?" and going from there.

Ive personally learned more than I can tell you from doing that.

That said, there is a line between being a combative debater, and being an arrogant dick who gets kicks out of smashing peoples contributions. A very thin line. And its easy to slide between them.



There are also topics that repeat, and for many who have been around for a while, its just not worth hoping on the merry go round yet again. Which may be why it seems like some arent posting.

See, and the most interesting aspect, is that people feel they are being attacked, or there ideas torn up.

I don't see it.

Questioning is not tearing things up.

Offering counter points is not tearing things up.

Nor can it be claimed dismissive, if anything, perhaps it's too much interest.

Whether the idea is old, or newly formed, questions and counter points are valid methods of exploration, and as i see it, are not negative testing, but only add to the context and content.

Khaos wrote: See, and the most interesting aspect, is that people feel they are being attacked, or there ideas torn up.

I don't see it.

Questioning is not tearing things up.

Offering counter points is not tearing things up.

Nor can it be claimed dismissive, if anything, perhaps it's too much interest.

Whether the idea is old, or newly formed, questions and counter points are valid methods of exploration, and as i see it, are not negative testing, but only add to the context and content.

Can I tear that up? :dry: :lol:
Just kidding

I have always kept in mind something tat originates from my home site.

I do not ask you to adopt it, just think on it.

"The risk you take by posting, is that someone may answer"

Now, it may seem a threat, but it is not malicious.

It's to remind people that everyone is responsible for the words of there voice, and you cannot control how people will react to that voice.