Caterpillars Blowing Smoke

That would be a shame, Khaos. Also a little drama-queeny. You're tough, you can take it.

Seriously, though. You provide some of what little accountability is available online. That has tremendous value.

Khaos wrote: I have seen ToTJo members be much more sarcastic with each other than I have with them, and it seems that the subject matter presented is what is the issue.

Its also not as if i am completely new here myself. No how I go about things. I have been here for awhile.

Rapport? If you know someone is your friend you can be ruder to them with a shared understanding that you actually value them and their opinions... perhaps these people communicate privately and have established their own ground rules. And the same works the other way, if you build a reputation as a sarcastic or negative person people won't read the blank words on the screen as friendly or conversational but antagonistic. These are simple facts of human communication which are lost in the purely logical analysis of what happens, which sadly seems rather apt given the conversation we're having here.

Thank you for replying to this thread and engaging with the opinions put forward to that extent. However it seems a real shame that rather than budge an inch you would leave the forum. All it would take for you to be very welcome and valuable here is a motion towards the exact sorts of things Cabur Senaar mentions: communicating in ways which don't alienate those you're speaking with, and picking your battles. I respect your choice not to do so, but there's plenty I'll miss about your often interesting posts.

As it happens I'm not just talking about you and Gisteron, I can think of at least 5 people my points related to. Perhaps you'll note I said not all fall into petty insults, I was actually thinking about you specifically when I said that (at least in my experience of you). Because you're the only one who responded to this thread, you've become the focus and that's a pity. It was not my intention to give you an example of how unwelcome people feel when the only respondents seem unreasonably stacked against them. As Cabur said... I believed you could take it.

May the Force be with you.

I don't enjoy constant petty semantic debate, or to be made to feel like an idiot for having a new or unformed idea

See, whenever I come up with the crazy stuff i regularly come up with, whenever people are acting touchy-feely or go into that "oh ren is being gross again" mode I just shove it in their face even more.
I discussed this with arcade before actually. He's the kind of person who likes to adapt his speech to his audience, to uh, protect their feelings and such... Not realizing that to me, it's probably one of the most offensive things he could ever do.

Ain't that calling the kettle black....

To me it's a form of manipulation. A good example of people telling others what is sweet to their ears are politicians. In a friendlier (non-political) environment, it's still a form of distrust and disrespect. For example if Arcade tells me "sweet" things instead of what he really thinks, what he does is either:
-Hide his true opinion from me on purpose (which is alarming, especially for the kind of stuff we discuss at totjo. These aren't negotiations with world peace at stake)
-Believe that I am in some way not capable of understanding what he truly means to say.
-Rob me of an opportunity to give some thoughts to his ideas and react to them (positively or negatively).

I won't speak for Arcade (nor do I think this applies) but perhaps a person who speaks in that way hasn't got the confidence to bluntly assert what they really think? Or perhaps they have different priorities, valuing a good relationship over blunt direct conversations? Perhaps they don't think in the same way you do and rather than consciously shielding their opinion they're expressing themselves honestly for them, even if that's different from how you'd prefer it done?

You talk of being "robbed"; perhaps the way other people are isn't all about you? What makes you think you have a right to any more of someone's opinion than what they choose to give you?

A arrogant assumption Ren...
I do not know what to think about that... Self centered?
To believe that you know more about someone than themselves.... Your reasoning is their reasoning? Project much? Maybe perhaps the feeling you have about manipulation is for you, about you?...
SMH...
Contemplate more on this I shall, I do not mean to offend.
Truly.
Appears like maybe this is just a form of antagonistic behavior to pull on emotions....

ren wrote: To me it's a form of manipulation. A good example of people telling others what is sweet to their ears are politicians.

I cant agree with this. Obviously it does happen. People do manipulate others. But more often than not moderating or "sweetning" the way in which you say things is designed to avoid unnecessary conflict or prevent future issues. Because, hey, we do have egos.

Good example is Gisteron coming into chat after one of these threads started. I told him that while I agreed with some of what he had said, i felt he'd been harsh in his delivery. You and I have had that same conversation on more than one occasion. OR I could also have told him that I think he was just being a right #$%% and being mean to my friends. (I believe we've had that conversation too ) but what would that have achieved? A spat in chat? Futher animosity in the forums? Most likely. And the general outcome of that sort of thing is closed ears to whatever that person has to say in the future.

I don't believe that its dishonest or manipulative to avoid shutting down future conversations. Or having a care for the feelings of others. Or remembering that while my opinion may be valid and "true" its still just my perception, and hurting others with it doesn't seem fair.

Why be offended at what ren thinks? Or khaos, or gisteron, or anyone else?

Even if any one of them call you out directly, why are we offended?

What does it matter that ren does not agree with how YOU (any of you) conduct yourself socially? Is he your father?

Is Khaos or Gisteron your uni professor?

This is in no defense for anybody about anything. This is an observation on reality here and now.

When you read something by any of them that makes you huff and puff, before you post something, think about why you huffed and puffed, and whether it really matters. Does it? No really, does it really matter? Are those people significant cornerstones of your life? Does their view of things, their opinions, have any kind of actual significant pull on your life? Are they verified authorities on your personal beliefs and behaviors?

"Well no, but...."

Ahem... Let's not complicate it. Read the question again if you have to. It's simple.

Trust me. It is.

When one finds or takes offense, I think it strikes a nerve in the belief system or attacks a certain attached feeling. Or an unconfronted truth which one attempts to mask.

My opinion/perspective/focus at the moment....

I think it is more of a how, than a why.
Why be offended?
How does one find offense...

I'm not offended, fact I am to the point where I expect as such. I used to be offended, when he was a Council member and was tolerated because of necessity, which left a real bad taste in my mouth before I left. It was my stupidity to make the assumption that Council members hold themselves to at least a somewhat honorable method for expressing themselves, especially in front of minors no doubt...

What makes you think you have a right to any more of someone's opinion than what they choose to give you?

I give them my time and effort... I think it's not too much to ask they be honest, forthright and genuine (which I am also)....


As to forming relationships.... There is no fake in a relationship and no relationships in fakeness. How do you guys make friends/partner/spouses?

By the opposite of fake,
real...
Being real...
keeping it real.

I see this as an author who has rejected some of the outcome of their works....

I am not surprised. Is what it is....

:whistle:

Sweet. Is it being used as a stand in for polite?

Real (blunt, honest, sincere) is not the opposite of polite (kind, civil, compassionate). I am troubled when I hear that. One can be completely honest without being rude. The truth is not what is harsh. The unskilled holder of the truth is harsh. Especially if the truth is difficult, it should be delivered with care. Complete, clear, compassionate.

If you cannot deliver a difficult truth in a respectful manner then the fault lies not with the truth but with the poor skill level of the communicator. A great deal of work to be done there.

And all of this is predicated on the notion that the truth is inherently harsh. That seems to leave out a substantial portion of life. If your truth leaves out the beautiful, or at least emotionally neutral, elements of life, it seems not to serve.

We are moving into black & white thinking here. Very rigid. To echo Khaos from a bit earlier, I do not require that you agree with me. I ask only that you think it over. When we say that we a keeping it real when we are rude, are we not surrendering our critical faculties, our agency, to resentment and an angry mask over our fear?

I have been looking over this thread and really don’t know what to think about it. :blink:

My first though is that many people seem to be making a big “to do” about a lot of nothing. :whistle:

If that was really Khaos’s last post here than I believe it will be our loss. I have always known him as a valiant antagonist. I do not share all of his views but he often posed questions or statements which caused a further examination of some aspect of the topic. And that is very healthy; rather anyone likes it or not.

Many of us, all of sometimes, post things which are not received well by others. Sure, some do it more than others. Who are we to say who is right and who is wrong? :S

There will always be that one person that says things that is not popular. Shoot, sometimes I think that guy is me! And there will always be those who claim to just be brutally honest when everyone else just sees it as being brutal. Guess what… that is your opinion! You are welcome to it but it is just that, your opinion.

Proteus hit the nail on the head, “why does it bother you so much?” :laugh:

We each tend to get very confident and self-righteous when we are in a group that we all share some common idea or goal. And ganging up on people should not be our way. I don’t care who answered what question, or what they responded to, or any of that noise. When I read a post I ask myself, were there any rules broken? Then I address the material of the post. I try to figure out the tone of the individual and ascertain the message that was attempted to be conveyed. If the reply bothered me, I let it go and move on the next thing. I can always come back to it later. I don’t need to prove that I’m right. I certainly don’t need others to prove that they are right either. Especially since most of what is shared is personal opinion. There is no right or wrong! There’s only yours and mine.

I’m sure there were other things I saw in this thread I wanted to cover, but I’ve probably said enough to get on plenty of people’s nerves as it is without continuing on. :dry:

And if I have written something that does bother you then perhaps you should ask yourself why! I have not used names or specific instances. Just things that I have noticed. I have not called anyone out… so why would it bother you? So if it does, think about it.

ren wrote: For example if Arcade tells me "sweet" things instead of what he really thinks, what he does is either:
-Hide his true opinion from me on purpose (which is alarming, especially for the kind of stuff we discuss at totjo. These aren't negotiations with world peace at stake)
-Believe that I am in some way not capable of understanding what he truly means to say.
-Rob me of an opportunity to give some thoughts to his ideas and react to them (positively or negatively).

IMO your wrong there, and that could be the basis of why that behaviour annoys some people. Perhaps re-evaluate and adjust if you want better results, as what I see is a presumption by you to know someone might be hiding an opinion simply because they adjust their speech to facilitate calm discussion. Your belief in that particular logic structure (which is a direct victim mentality assumption of 1. other person bad, 2. other person not trusting me, 3. other person stealing from me) could generate an defensive emotional momentum within you, causing you to blame them for what really is an entirely imagined insult, IMO. The stories we whisper to ourselves quietly are the loudest sounds we'll hear.

One big disfunctional family. Bring the shoutbox back, or get us tickets to the Springer show....lol

Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

ren wrote: Well, that's great and all, but at the end of the day, we have Arcade here basically asking people not to communicate with him because he can't handle it. I think this proves his method of being polite is in fact preventing communication.

You ok ren? I imagine you realise your insulting people in public so I wonder why.... its not needed to have to achieve the discussion.