Caterpillars Blowing Smoke

Khaos wrote:
I don't see it.

Which is exactly the point people are making. Most of us try to take into account how what we say will be taken by others, how it might affect them. We generally try to be sensitive to the effects that the way in which we approach conversations might have.

Not in a way that undermines our message, but in a way that fosters continuing conversation, rather than stalling it.

Khaos wrote: I do not ask you to adopt it, just think on it.

YES!!

But, again, its often not what we say but how that creates friction.

Khaos wrote: See, and the most interesting aspect, is that people feel they are being attacked, or there ideas torn up.

I don't see it.

Questioning is not tearing things up.

Offering counter points is not tearing things up.

Nor can it be claimed dismissive, if anything, perhaps it's too much interest.

Whether the idea is old, or newly formed, questions and counter points are valid methods of exploration, and as i see it, are not negative testing, but only add to the context and content.

tzb wrote: If you have an opposing view, fine. Good! Interesting, and one of the reasons we're all here. But the intensity and tone with which a view is presented can suffocate conversation, stifle mutual learning and has, in my opinion, made this less of a "safe space" recently, where people only feel comfortable openly communicating via PM.

It's a fact that the conversations are still going on, they're just going on out of view of those who seem to come to the Temple primarily to dissect and refute others. Personally I don't think that's (at all) positive or sustainable, but either the conversations will stagnate in their isolated pockets or people will just lose interest. A third option is things get back to normal and people can speak their minds without facing an inquisition for every half-formed idea they have.

It's a lesson most of us learn as kids... "If you can't play nice people won't want to play with you".

No Khaos, we can't control how others might respond to our posts....

But they can...

The constant hammering on a new question, thought, or idea, "theory" (in the colloquial sense), will stunt growth...

Growth will stunt, and a movement, such as a force community, will die...

Because as even you and Mr. Gisteron have said, not everything is known...

Many here say "I don't know", many others offer reasons, theories (in the colloquial sense), ideas, or perhaps even, excuses...

You (collectively, because you, Gisteron, Ren, and others are not alone) cant see it because you are like the rest of us... "Blind to our own faults"

It is why sites die, become stagnant... Because folks quit posting, because the fear of ridicule outweighs their fear to know... They are not strong enough, yet...

Look at it like gladiators, verbal gladiators...

We are training those with no skill (correctly/fully formed ideas - no idea how to share them, etc) to begin with... You are a top gladiator and you are making the new ones not want to practice, cause your style of practice is too rough...

They can barely carry the sword, and on each attempt to.pick it up, you "clang" it back down, vibration ringing in their hands...

+++++++++++
To sum it all up, someone ask me about another access level where people that, hmm, uh, well, where beginners can post on "god" (as example, not strictly for) and have a discussions, without feeling like they are defending it from atrack...

My argument is that the guest level forums will then dry up, and people such as yourself (Gisteron, whoever) will quit coming here... And, as another top gladiator (I feel), you guys don't bother me...

Brenna talking about herself, would not have had the coolness to discuss like this when she joined, lol, sorry Brenna, ... But, I'm not perfect either, and vent occasionally to others, lol...

And, I feel exchanges with you ARE important (like exchanges with everyone), by, only a certain caliber of gladiator can do it.... But so is training the "new" ones, and I am having trouble finding a solution...

It is my usual practice to avoid engaging certain persons on our Temple Forum, but the current level of discontent compels a response. It is the case that thread discussions are consistently derailed by their confrontational interruptions and there seems no topic that they cannot weigh in on. Too often it is the case that the topic under discussion becomes a discussion about them. (These squeaky wheels are so obtrusive that several of them now have threads named for them, started by their invasive compatriots.) On occasion, there is some comment of value, but for the most part, sifting through their entire post is not worth the effort. As 'guests' and 'novices' they show a willful lack of respect for the milieu of our Temple.

There are two approaches to such disruptive behavior online: ignore or confront. Since the latter only serves to feed their seemingly insatiable need for attention, and even as the former seems the only viable alternative, they are so adept at goading that they make it virtually impossible for some to ignore. A suggestion for my fellow Jedi here is to adopt the practice of, when seeing their names on the side bar, skip down to the next post. Perhaps, if we practice not feeding them, they eventually will return to their own online community.

Alan wrote: A suggestion for my fellow Jedi here is to adopt the practice of, when seeing their names on the side bar, skip down to the next post. Perhaps, if we practice not feeding them, they eventually will return to their own online community.

Thank you, Alan. I was attempting to craft a similar response, but it was far less eloquent. Something like this...

Cade wrote: Please let me start by saying I am writing this with a clear head and there is no hostility behind it or veiled anger in my words, nor am I pointing fingers. This is a request aimed at the general community and itrepresents my feelings. Itis not intended to represent the thoughts or feelings of others.

I had a miserable day at TotJO yesterday. A ball of negativity engulfed the entire Temple, and it affected me and many other members of the church in unfortunate ways. I wasted 10 hours of my life engaging in conversations that led nowhere and arguments, debates, and disagreements that were of little importance or significance.To a certain extent,I agreewith those who say that there is some value or a lesson in all of these encounters. However, I feel strongly that this was not the case yesterday (and on various past occasions).

In my mind, most of us in the community are consciously going through a metamorphosis. The majority of Jedi here are pupae in their individual chrysalises, some have already become butterflies, but others are three inch caterpillars smoking hookahs who are constantly blowing smoke on others.

If you are someone who is not interested in learning, growing personally and spiritually, listening (to alternative perspectives), or engaging in conversations (rather than debates) with a degree of respect for others' thoughts and feelings and an appreciation for the inherent worth and sincerity of other people in this community, I ask, respectfully, that you reconsider before choosing to interact with me on the forum or elsewhere.

I have always worked hard to understand others and mend misunderstandings,and will continue to do so, but I now know where my line is and reserve the right to ignore you or simply say "no more."

Please feel free to discuss this further, though I will not respond in this thread (you are, of course, welcome to PM me).

The things I learn about myself when you speak up Cade, thank you. And thank you Alan, reading your posts I realize many probably viewed me as a troll once. I have been known to pick at the theories of new members posting things like how the force would die if we didn't continue to look after it, and other such nonsense.

I didn't pick at their theories because they had wide gaping holes in them, or because I thought it fun and had nothing better to do. I viewed it all as bad for the site I once looked at as a Temple, My Temple. It frustrated me, very much so.... to the point on my leaving.

And Jester wonders why I don't post in the forums much anymore. I find either I tend to go after people like a lion hunting wildebeest on the Serengeti, or I shun it like the plague for the sake of being detatched yet somewhat content. Temporary vacations are much better than myself getting disgusted, fed up and leaving.

Unfortunately, I agree with much Gisteron and Kaos have stated. There are quite a number of people here in need of their egos fed, coddled and or tickled. There's learning, and then there's just straight up preaching and teaching when one OBVIOUSLY has not earned the right to do so. So much puffing of the chest and stroking one's ego, "I know this, I know that."

And it continues, much like how people continue posting occasionally in the in the S.A forum, from sheer need of entertainment...

The beast wants to lash out, it wants to call bullshit when it sees plain as day. Unfortunately it's allowed. Either I do the same, and make an example out of them, or I realize I lose more in the process of doing so by potentially alienating myself and others, and just stick my angry ass to the wall.

Sorry for this turning into a mini rant, shit just came out I guess, lol. Thank you Cade, you remind me of the reason I once loved and looked at the TOTJO as a Temple, My Temple...

Brenna wrote:

Khaos wrote: I do not ask you to adopt it, just think on it.

YES!!

But, again, its often not what we say but how that creates friction.

I disagree, as many times, it seems simply what is presented that creates friction.

You could argue how to a certain extent, but I have seen ToTJo members be much more sarcastic with each other than I have with them, and it seems that the subject matter presented is what is the issue.

Its also not as if i am completely new here myself. No how I go about things. I have been here for awhile.

Which is exactly the point people are making. Most of us try to take into account how what we say will be taken by others, how it might affect them. We generally try to be sensitive to the effects that the way in which we approach conversations might have.

Not in a way that undermines our message, but in a way that fosters continuing conversation, rather than stalling it.

Ha! Conversation here stalls even if I dont participate, and I dont see it because I am being sensitive to how others will take things.

Again, I walk on eggshells just to be here and get something out of it.

I dont see it, because I am not doing it, not because I dont know what being rude is.

If every attempt I make to be a part of this site is to be seen as rude, then that leaves me little in the way of options no?

I am as individual as anyone else, and that extends to how I interact, and I know how to be rude, I have not been rude, or insensitive.

Jestor wrote: No Khaos, we can't control how others might respond to our posts....

But they can...

The constant hammering on a new question, thought, or idea, "theory" (in the colloquial sense), will stunt growth...

Growth will stunt, and a movement, such as a force community, will die...

Because as even you and Mr. Gisteron have said, not everything is known...

Many here say "I don't know", many others offer reasons, theories (in the colloquial sense), ideas, or perhaps even, excuses...

You (collectively, because you, Gisteron, Ren, and others are not alone) cant see it because you are like the rest of us... "Blind to our own faults"

It is why sites die, become stagnant... Because folks quit posting, because the fear of ridicule outweighs their fear to know... They are not strong enough, yet...

Look at it like gladiators, verbal gladiators...

We are training those with no skill (correctly/fully formed ideas - no idea how to share them, etc) to begin with... You are a top gladiator and you are making the new ones not want to practice, cause your style of practice is too rough...

They can barely carry the sword, and on each attempt to.pick it up, you "clang" it back down, vibration ringing in their hands...

+++++++++++
To sum it all up, someone ask me about another access level where people that, hmm, uh, well, where beginners can post on "god" (as example, not strictly for) and have a discussions, without feeling like they are defending it from atrack...

My argument is that the guest level forums will then dry up, and people such as yourself (Gisteron, whoever) will quit coming here... And, as another top gladiator (I feel), you guys don't bother me...

Brenna talking about herself, would not have had the coolness to discuss like this when she joined, lol, sorry Brenna, ... But, I'm not perfect either, and vent occasionally to others, lol...

And, I feel exchanges with you ARE important (like exchanges with everyone), by, only a certain caliber of gladiator can do it.... But so is training the "new" ones, and I am having trouble finding a solution...

Colorful terminology.

However, I am not fighting.

I am not hammering away at things.

I am not a gladiator.

Still, apparently it has been eluded that it would be the fault of my posting that would stagnate the site.

Or it has been implied that I am troll that seeks to be fed and should be ignored and go back to another site.

A suggestion for my fellow Jedi here is to adopt the practice of, when seeing their names on the side bar, skip down to the next post. Perhaps, if we practice not feeding them, they eventually will return to their own online community.

You could claim the post has nothing to do with me, but, well, really only two people are being discussed here in any real sense.

Which is interesting, as my posts hardly can be seen as trolling, because it seems it is not that it does not have merit, but that people cannot handle the merit it has.

I also do not engage only new members, so that excuse is more than a bit of a stretch.

If there is training lacked in discussing ones own ideas then, apparently there is something you could train even long time members in.

Keep in mind that I have never posted a whole slew of topics around specific people or by name...

Interesting really, as such threads would be much more rude in comparison to commenting, or asking a question in a regular topic discussed.

Still, even than I am not crying foul.

Still, in a casino, its always best to know that the house always wins.

I concede that.

This will by my last post at ToTJo.

]

Khaos wrote:
It's a lesson most of us learn as kids... "If you can't play nice people won't want to play with you".

Makes sense to me.

My thought is to not do much that gets in my own way or makes my goals more difficult to reach. I have no desire to yank ny hair out. And if the universe is going to kick you in the mouth (something of an article of faith for me), then that seems like all the more reason that I should be kind, or at least civil. The universe certainly doesn't need my help in the mouth-kicking department.

And I agree that coddling people is not useful. There is, however a lot of room between being squishy and being a cyst. Nobody likes a cyst.

As a teacher, I must take full responsibility for how I am heard. Can I completely control it? Of course not. But I am professionally and ethically obligated to make my best effort and to check back as many times as is necessary. This means a few things. One, I craft my message so that I do not create resistance in the listener. It also means that I pick my battles. Some things do not bear discussion. If I only have so many minutes, I choose to remain focused.

But this has been fruitful. I need to reevaluate my sense of how influential a forum post can be. I am inclined to write them off as too distant and anonymous with no real accountability. Still, I suppose if I can't learn from an insightful post then the problem may be entirely my own.