Should jedi train in combat?

Ah, another combat thread :silly:

As many other's have stated, having a developed and disciplined mind will often outweigh the need for or individual capability of martial arts / combat skills. Most conflicts in life cannot be solved through physical confrontation, and instead require careful mental thought and consideration. As many of us are also aware, there are severe civil and legal penalties attached to causing physical injury as a result of violent confrontation.

I have trained in many martial arts over the years which include kickboxing, tae kwon do, karate, wrestling, boxing, and akido - among others. When people ask me which one I think is the best to train in for the event of a street fight, I reply "none of them". Having been in many street fights, I will tell you that if you try to pull some fancy maneuver or attack, you are more than likely going to get hurt as these types of fights are hyper-paced and do not allow time to execute anything more than a simple jab or block.

And you better hope that your opponent doesn't have a knife in their pocket or a group of buddies that are going to come to his aid. Even skilled martial artists have difficulty defending against multiple opponents, and the good ones strongly advise against taking on such a challenge.

The more adept you become at training your mind in diplomacy, the less necessary physical conflict becomes. This isn't a blanket rule, and in some cases a confrontation simply can't be avoided - but these situations are very far and few between.

Very few conflicts start without provocation. The chances are you did something to insult/offend/threaten another individual, whether you believe it is founded or unfounded doesn't matter at this point. The best way to end a conflict before it gets to the point fighting is necessary, is to have a little humility, apologize for your part of the problem, listen to the other persons concerns, and keep yourself calm as to not further escalate the situation.

Our doctrine reinforces all of these points, and even encourages Jedi to be equally proficient in both mental and physical discipline so as to be mature and capable when (not if) they are called into a future conflict.

What i personally believe is that Jedi should be capable of defending someone and themselves, and in what way you want to do that is up to you. Personally i practice martial arts

When we speak about "defending Jediism" then i see it so that we should verbally clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings that may give an individual a incorrect view of Jediism. Or correct any incorrect information given about Jediism that may mislead people

Adder wrote: In my opinion, sword's are pretty useless as defensive weapons except against other swords, as they are not proportionate for self defense against anything less capable then a sword (unless used proportionately), and are simply ineffective against anything more capable then a sword.

What defensive maneuvers are swords useless in? Swords are extensions of arms, so a lot of manual defense also applies to swords such as parrying, blocking, trapping.

Trisskar wrote: I on the other hand feel that Martial Arts and Combat are.....Martial Combat. There is no such thing as "Learning Martial Arts outside of the physical aspect" as Coyote suggests.

That's a tough stance to defend, what reasons found the opinion? Martial arts and combat are merely practical applications of character virtues learnt through the science of the mechanics. So I'm curious to see how your opinion is going to be substantiated.

Trisskar wrote: Correct Agreed. I just feel it is necessary to remind folks to not forget. Combat is combat. It is not something you just play around with because you want something other than combat. May as well go do Yoga or Dance or Hiking or Biking....all of which can earn the same spiritual and diciplinary aspects.

It's like picking up a gun and taking it to the shooting range. No matter how sportsman you get. No matter the meditative and deciplinary aspects you gain (Taking apart a rifle, cleaning and putting it back together can be very meditative) It is still a gun and it can still kill you. Treat it like a gun.

Treat Martial arts like Martial arts. You are learning techniques on how to hurt people....no matter how pretty the wrappings can get around it And some of those wrappings can get veeeeeeerry Frilly haha!!

The essence of martial arts is to contain violence and aggression, which disproves the opinion of the purpose of hurting people. But at least try to reason your 2 cents to demonstrate its value.

While getting folks out and training for physical activities is something I very much encourage, saying that Jedi should train in combat is a different matter. If folks want to do that great! Martial Arts (in all forms, I practice Medieval Equestrianism where I use swords and lances on horseback) are great activities to get people focused on using their bodies and minds. Great stuff.

However I have NEVER needed to know how to use any of those skills in real life. At least not to this point.

I have needed to know how to jump a car, how to make sure people are safe after a severe snow storm, how to keep myself safe after a snow storm, how to prepare for bad weather conditions, how to drive in six feet of snow, how to use 4 wheel drive, when someone needs to be pulled out of a ditch, how to butcher a deer (or dispatch one in the case of an accident), how to build and keep a fire, changing fuses in your house/car....... I could go on.....basic skills that you can do so when something does happen people don't stand around looking clueless until someone gets there that does know.

I'm not discrediting martial arts at all, they are really great things to know. I'd just rather people look to basic skills that lot of folks really don't focus on because when the power/water/internet shuts down what are you going to do?

Not everything we learn as Jedi has to be translated to use in "Real Life"

Sometimes what we learn can simply just be "Great Stuff" and still hold great importance Martial Arts isn't just about the cool fighting moves. Its much much more than that....and that "More" is very important for Jedi to discover and learn.

IMO of course

J_Roz wrote: However I have NEVER needed to know how to use any of those skills in real life. At least not to this point.

This argument becomes invalid as soon as you do need it. How many people who did need it never had before? How many probably never did again? (either because the odds of needing it were low or because the worst happened as a result of not knowing it).

J_Roz wrote: basic skills that you can do so when something does happen people don't stand around looking clueless until someone gets there that does know.

This sentence literally makes just as much sense when applied to skills involving defending oneself or others. Just as the previous sentence I quoted can make equal sense when applied to the skills you have listed.

Many of the skills you listed are skills that I have never needed yet either. I will say though, that the skills you listed are useful ones to have (and I have quite a few of them). They are skills I recommend people have in addition to the ability to defend themselves. But as I have stated previously, that is all up to the individual if they want to learn it or not. I just think it's useful to have.

How many people have never needed a first aid kit but gotten one anyways? Like many things in life, we get them and/or learn them not because we need them right then and there; but, because when we do need them it will be too late to go looking for them.

I watched a movie a while back and near the beginning there were several lines that I think hold very true.

There are people that say that will never happen to me. Those are the sheep. There are people that prey on them and take advantage of them. Those are the wolves. Then there are those that have the ability to fight off the wolf and protect the sheep, those are the sheep dogs. I am summarizing from memory, but it made sense to me. And being a sheep isn’t bad. I think the world doesn’t have enough sheep. But unfortunately the world is full of wolves. And that is why we need the sheep dogs.

But there is not always going to be a sheep dog around when the wolves come to knock on your door. That is why I believe that every person should do at least something to prepare themselves for that eventuality. whether it be an armed robber or a crooked store manager no one should rely solely on others for their defense. Even if all they learn is a method to distract the wolf long enough for them to be able to run away that is a far better answer than hoping someone will come to the rescue.

Just my thoughts on it all.

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs



There's more on the website if you're interested. Good read.

Entropist wrote:

Adder wrote: In my opinion, sword's are pretty useless as defensive weapons except against other swords, as they are not proportionate for self defense against anything less capable then a sword (unless used proportionately), and are simply ineffective against anything more capable then a sword.

What defensive maneuvers are swords useless in? Swords are extensions of arms, so a lot of manual defense also applies to swords such as parrying, blocking, trapping.

Mostly because your unable to carry them in public (AFAIK), but also obviously being useless against a projectile weapon or thrown object, or driven vehicle. Nothing will be an all inclusive defensive weapon either of course so that is not my point, but I guess it depends on the sword as well, some are heavy and their blade movement slower to accelerate which makes them vulnerable to someone getting inside its arc with a knife but can more easily held in defensive blocking etc, while lighter blades are faster but more easily blocked which makes them less useful in defence being lighter and designed more to cut then crush. I guess that is what the lightsaber was trying to represent, an ideal defensive weapon powerful enough to defeat any attack when wielded by the super fast reflexed Jedi, but discreet enough to wear as a fashion accessory.

There is the story about arguably the greatest swordsperson Miyamoto Musashi being beaten only once, and not by a sword. Musō Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi having being beaten by Musashi once using a sword is said to have gone off to develop what was to become Jōjutsu, which he later employed with success against Musashi... stick over sword, dunno if its true or not but a stick is more discreet and can be a readily found improvised object. But, if everyone was walking around with swords it would be a different story. If I was in the US I'd probably have a handgun for example, despite not thinking they should be allowed its just the lay of the land there.

Edit: I've posted it before, but I dig this scene from The Twilight Samurai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvxsHqFPj6M

I need to clarify my post because after reading it again it sure seemed like I was stating I was happy with my head in the sand and that is most certainly not it.

I agree with Goken in that those words are never uttered until you need them. Life is very much situational. I do train in a form of martial arts and I think its great for folks to take on.

For me I do need to know how to drive four wheel drive because just Saturday we got three inches of snow. Last year at this time we had a foot and half.

I needed to state that each situation requires a different response and those who are cross trained in many serve the best good because they are capable and ready for anything thrown at them.

I had a badly stated post. For that I am very sorry.