Changes to the Simple Oath

How should the Oath read and when should it be taken? What should a Membership Agreement say?

How should the Oath read and when should it be taken? What should a Membership Agreement say?

I think the oath is too much like the solemn vows. Something simpler and less weird would be more appropriate:

"I affirm that I, [name] born on [dd/mm/yy], choose the Jedi path and declare observance of the Force, until I otherwise decide. During that time I promise to do my utmost to uphold the Jedi teachings, and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi."
-get rid of "profess" due to potentially inappropriate double meaning
-oath is still valid when knighthood reached
-duties and responsibilities are unknown if existent
-allegiance to the force is kind of weird, replacing with doctrine terminology

The stated goal is

Currently one must take the Oath with "with sufficient deliberation and due discernment", but an argument can be made that when one first joins the Temple they do not have sufficient knowledge of either the Temple nor possibly Jediism itself so cannot understand the full implications of taking the Oath.

The current implication of taking the oath is membership (when app is also completed). In other words, the oath currently allows access to rank.
The oath is also revocable and offers an opt-out ("Until i otherwise decide").
the oath is currently unnecessary to study the IP (and complete a journal).

The Jedi ways are actually taught at the apprentice level. After apprenticeship, one must confirm dedication to the Jedi path with the solemn vows in order to be Knighted. It is therefore the purpose of the oath to be a statement of intent to be a Jedi. This statement must be more effective than it currently is.

Why is it not effective enough?
People want rank more than they want to learn the way. When the path to rank is prominently displayed, that's what they go for. When it's not prominently displayed, that's what they ask for. The fastest way of obtaining rank is oath + app.

How do we make people more interested in the way than in rank?
Not by making accessibility to rank even easier.

If the oath is not taken seriously or understood, does that not mean the app and membership are not taken seriously or understood either?
I think it kinda does.

So I think the only way to achieve it is:
-not give rank so easily "when one first joins the Temple" as "they do not have sufficient knowledge of either the Temple nor possibly Jediism itself "
-not reward the oath with anything, as what makes the oath valuable is that it is its own reward.

It can be reasonably decided that the oath should be a pre-requisite of apprenticeship, and encourage people to take it whenever they feel comfortable with it. Before the IP, during the IP, or after it. It's not like it's enforceable anyway, and the option of reaffirmation always existed.
However.
This means membership (temple member) with no knowledge of totjo or jediism and not even the oath is meaningless.
Similarly "novice" does not serve much purpose. There is no point in knowing someone posted a journal entry through rank. It can be assumed everyone who has joined the site has studied either some of the doctrine or the IP. there's no point in differentiating.
"Initiate" only serves the purpose of letting masters know that someone is available for an apprenticeship. The app could be only first needed (and checked for) during the apprenticing process, as it currently is already being checked at that point anyway. (last step before announcement)
The app could also be made more meaningful in a religious sense, keep details and criminal background, forget about the rest and have interesting questions instead.

As always Ren, you bring some good points...

Forgive this long post, and how long it took me to respond, you know I am always doing something, and work has gotten a bit crazy...

However, you do bring some interesting things to the table, and things we are discussing in council, about

Ren wrote: Something simpler and less weird

-ly worded... I agree, it is worded a bit oddly...

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now, to address your points...

"I affirm that I, [name] born on [dd/mm/yy], choose the Jedi path and declare observance of the Force, until I otherwise decide. During that time I promise to do my utmost to uphold the Jedi teachings, and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi."
[Not too shabby...]

-get rid of "profess" due to potentially inappropriate double meaning [a quick google definition shows no inappropriate meanings]
-oath is still valid when knighthood reached [which would not change by our moving it]
-duties and responsibilities are unknown if existent [as are the teachings....]
-allegiance to the force is kind of weird, replacing with doctrine terminology [it has been proposed to pledge/promise/ets to the understanding/studying of the Force]

Something you didnt discuss, and Council has been, is the: "until I decide"....

Conversations have been talking about this line, as it sort of removes any seriousness to the oath, and makes it sound like "eh, Ive had enough, I dont wanna be a jedi anymore, thanks anyway" and 'poof', no longer a Jedi...

Every Oath or Vow I have ever seen, can be broken or revoked, so, rather than making it seem wish-washy, we have been discussing that removal of that line will make it a bit more serious.... And thus (hopefully) given more consideration when being taken...

The stated goal is

Currently one must take the Oath with "with sufficient deliberation and due discernment", but an argument can be made that when one first joins the Temple they do not have sufficient knowledge of either the Temple nor possibly Jediism itself so cannot understand the full implications of taking the Oath.

Correct...

And why the wording, not just the placement, is being discussed in council...

The current implication of taking the oath is membership (when app is also completed). In other words, the oath currently allows access to rank. [it is only 1/2 of the equation... the oath alone is an oath... changes would make it a requirement of reaching Initiate...]
The oath is also revocable and offers an opt-out ("Until i otherwise decide"). [an "opt-out" in an oath, seems... dumb?]
the oath is currently unnecessary to study the IP (and complete a journal). [nothing is necessary.. not even an account or username.... dont know that I knew this before, but I just checked...]

The Jedi ways are actually taught at the apprentice level. After apprenticeship, one must confirm dedication to the Jedi path with the solemn vows in order to be Knighted. It is therefore the purpose of the oath to be a statement of intent to be a Jedi. This statement must be more effective than it currently is.

Jedi ways are taught at every level...

The IP merely organizes the beginning phases of the thinking... Puts things in an order... Not THE order, but an order, lol...

And why you and so many others find Campbell boring at this stage of your journey...

Why is it not effective enough?
People want rank more than they want to learn the way. When the path to rank is prominently displayed, that's what they go for. When it's not prominently displayed, that's what they ask for. The fastest way of obtaining rank is oath + app.

How do we make people more interested in the way than in rank?
Not by making accessibility to rank even easier.

If the oath is not taken seriously or understood, does that not mean the app and membership are not taken seriously or understood either?
I think it kinda does.

"Temple Member" is a status, isnt it?



Yes it does mean that the app is not taken seriously...

I delete plenty of folks who put down "trollish" type things becasue they are not worth the time to let everyone in on the laugh, lol....

And, we say that about the Oath not being taken serious, yes, they fill out the app too, and never come back... Well, few have come back so far, lol....

But the App is straightforward, no interpretation required...

So I think the only way to achieve it is:
-not give rank so easily "when one first joins the Temple" as "they do not have sufficient knowledge of either the Temple nor possibly Jediism itself "
-not reward the oath with anything, as what makes the oath valuable is that it is its own reward.

We are not making rank easier, we are making membership easier...

Making a status easier...

I dont know that "easier" is the right word... Easier in that there is one step, versus two steps, I guess.... But, if the person filling things out isnt paying attention, or adhering to what is said anyway, does it matter?

The first 'rank', Novice, is still earned the same way...

The Oath is not a reward, nor is one being rewarded for taking it... Although I supposed on that arguement could be made... We could make a lot of arguments though, lol...

Once we implement this, when the journal is complete, this is it for anyone interested... They are considered a Novice by TOTJO definition... Should they want to continue their training as TOTJO suggests it, then an Oath of personal commitment needs to be taken signifying such... After the taking of the Oath, their rank is changed to Initiate to signify to others that they are available for apprenticeship, according to the rules in place...

If you (worldly you) take the Oath, and dont want to be considered for apprenticeship, rank will remain Novice.... The Oath does not mean automatic Initiate...

It is really up to the individual...

It can be reasonably decided that the oath should be a pre-requisite of apprenticeship, and encourage people to take it whenever they feel comfortable with it. Before the IP, during the IP, or after it. It's not like it's enforceable anyway, and the option of reaffirmation always existed.

Oh yes, people can take the Oath whenever they like...

But it will only be checked before apprenticeship....

I wont worry about tracking every one, only if they are ready (and willing) for apprenticeship...

And every Oath now taken is still valid...

However.
This means membership (temple member) with no knowledge of totjo or jediism and not even the oath is meaningless.

Not true...

That makes no sense...

Right now, to the MAJORITY of those who fill out an app, and/or take the Oath, it means nothing...

As proven by how many I process, and how many are here...

Membership is the beginning, and saying, "Ya know, I am interested enough, that I am going to give you my personal information..." Nothing says that they have provided the truth, but we have to start somewhere... And untruthfully filled out app is an invalid one......

Most entities that ask for an application for membership, do not provide as much info as we do about themselves before asking such things... Most are like "well, if you cannot even take the time to fill out an app, we dont have the time to explain every little detail to you either... Most organizations ask for an application for membership (if a person is interested) pretty quickly, giving guests only limited access to certain areas of their organization...

Similarly "novice" does not serve much purpose. There is no point in knowing someone posted a journal entry through rank. It can be assumed everyone who has joined the site has studied either some of the doctrine or the IP. there's no point in differentiating.

You have not liked "Novice" since it was discussed, :lol:, and you are stuck with it...

Well, you are not, as you choose to not do the IP...

One should never 'assume', dont you know that? lol...

GOing back to numbers, the majority who 'join' dont take it serious and dont even come back, lol...

I would give you that possibly the majority have maybe read the doctrine or IP at least browsed it once, but study? No freaking way, lol...

"Initiate" only serves the purpose of letting masters know that someone is available for an apprenticeship. The app could be only first needed (and checked for) during the apprenticing process, as it currently is already being checked at that point anyway. (last step before announcement)

We use the app to differentiate between a temple guest, and a temple member...

This is the first step... And where the firsst step should be, in the case of TOTJO, we (you as well at the time) determined that the first step should be the joining of the organization through an application...

The Council still believes it so...

The app could also be made more meaningful in a religious sense, keep details and criminal background, forget about the rest and have interesting questions instead.

The app always has room for improvement... As does everything...

While it is the first step in joining, not everyone feels that this is a religious path, therefore, we just ask that it is filled out for membership to the organization...

Perhaps one day we will be a bit more restrictive in our admittance of members, and then an interview process would be implemented...

Right now, and as long as I am seated here, that wont be the case, lol...

Jestor wrote:

"I affirm that I, [name] born on [dd/mm/yy], choose the Jedi path and declare observance of the Force, until I otherwise decide. During that time I promise to do my utmost to uphold the Jedi teachings, and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi."
[Not too shabby...]

-get rid of "profess" due to potentially inappropriate double meaning [a quick google definition shows no inappropriate meanings]
-oath is still valid when knighthood reached [which would not change by our moving it]
-duties and responsibilities are unknown if existent [as are the teachings....]
-allegiance to the force is kind of weird, replacing with doctrine terminology [it has been proposed to pledge/promise/ets to the understanding/studying of the Force]

Something you didnt discuss, and Council has been, is the: "until I decide"....

Conversations have been talking about this line, as it sort of removes any seriousness to the oath, and makes it sound like "eh, Ive had enough, I dont wanna be a jedi anymore, thanks anyway" and 'poof', no longer a Jedi...

Every Oath or Vow I have ever seen, can be broken or revoked, so, rather than making it seem wish-washy, we have been discussing that removal of that line will make it a bit more serious.... And thus (hopefully) given more consideration when being taken...

-A quick google search shows a highly problematic meaning for an oath. Seriously dude, did you even google it?



-The oath currently is valid "until I am ready for Jedi Knighthood". There is no point in saying this, the vows are the oath without the "I otherwise decide", and with knighthood come the vows. Although I must say, it seems strange to see the current council worry so much about the oath being taken seriously when that very same council had completely forgotten to include the solemn vows in knighting ceremonies.

-The teachings are known and existent. They are prominently placed on the frontpage and through the doctrine. duties and responsibilities are not. And a bit of trivia for you.... The doctrine and FAQ links in the main menu were placed right underneath the "login/register" button on purpose. We don't really have a page for "things a jedi must do" and "things a jedi is responsible for".


The "until I decide" is what separates the oath from the vows. If it is to be removed, then there no longer is a point in having the oath. Don't forget that before the oath, we had the vows (as a requirement for membership, not at the knighthood level). And because it could not be expected of new people to take a true vow, the oath was created, with its special "until I otherwise decide" opt-out thingy.



I'll go through the rest of your post later on.

A quick google search shows a highly problematic meaning for an oath. Seriously dude, did you even google it?

Lol, yes....

"Inappropriate", I read as risque....

My apologies, lol....

Also, this thread is about the oath placement, not wording....

I touched on it, yes, but I'm going to refrain from further comment in this thread......

I have no deep insight to offer and while acknowledging my ignorance of the subject matter, throw in my 2 cents (pence)...

As one who recently went through the App/Oath process, I had no issue with either...

It appears there is an organizational/process challenge with the Application system, which could be addressed so as to reduce the burden of volume of abandoned applications. That is a systems issue which doesn't have to affect the goal of having the Oath.

I think others have remarked on making the process serve the goals of the Temple. If there is a clear identification of what needs to be accomplished, then that should illuminate which process need be followed.

I don't feel I have specific insight to offer on if or whether or when there should be an oath/app or how that should look. I do know that I didn't find the current process onerous.

Br. John wrote: How should the Oath read and when should it be taken? What should a Membership Agreement say?

The oath on request, rather than a finishing goal of the initiate program. Stimulating people to finish their initiate program ''to soon'' in order to take the oath on the cruise control should not be the way of acting. I would suggest that the privilege of taking the oath should be granted by the council or some kind of ''Guard of membership duty officer''?

Councillor Br. John and Akkarin, a oath can be read in multiple ways. I believe that the oath should be taken, not as an part of becoming a initiate. But as part and privilege of being accepted as a initiate, example:

''In the name of the council, and with the honor of the knights and masters of the Jedi Temple, you [Full Name] are hereby voluntarily invited to formally becoming student of the Temple of the Jedi Order.''

a Membership/Initiate Agreement should consist of two parts, the formal letter as first part of becoming a member. The oath after the initiate program on request:

- A oath, to be taken after request.
- A formal letter, consisting the next elements:

-- Opening of the Letter (example: ''Dear Jedi of the Jedi Temple,'')
-- Reason of taking the oath ( introduction of the letter )
-- Formal introduction
-- *Explanation of you way of study
-- *Personal goals of Jediism
-- Expectations of Jediism
-- Formal ending
-- Ending of the letter letter (example: '' Yours faithfully, [full name])

Jestor wrote:

A quick google search shows a highly problematic meaning for an oath. Seriously dude, did you even google it?

Lol, yes....

"Inappropriate", I read as risque....

My apologies, lol....

Also, this thread is about the oath placement, not wording....

I touched on it, yes, but I'm going to refrain from further comment in this thread......

John asked how the oath should read.

"Temple Member" is a status, isnt it?



Yes it does mean that the app is not taken seriously...

In that case why isn't the app (and therefore membership) moved with the oath? Status/rank, whatever. The distinction only serves a purpose when writing law.

We are not making rank easier, we are making membership easier...

Which does not in any way invalidate my point: Instead of making people take things more seriously, it dumbs things down for them.

Oh yes, people can take the Oath whenever they like...

So basically, you don't actually prevent anyone from taking the oath (btw, why does the new change say it is "given"?) as soon as they've registered, you're just making it easier for people to become members? Totjo used to define a jedi as someone who has submitted the app and taken the oath, does that mean that people who don't believe in the force or in the ways are jedi too now? Or is this being changed as well?

You have not liked "Novice" since it was discussed, :lol:, and you are stuck with it...

I'm honestly surprised you remember that

I would give you that possibly the majority have maybe read the doctrine or IP at least browsed it once, but study? No freaking way, lol...

By "study" I mean "taken some time to understand" the IP or the doctrine. And by everyone who has joined the site, I don't mean people who have registered an account and left. I mean people who have come here and engage in some way with the website community. that's people who are now knights, people who have remained guests and temple members. Some think it's for them, others do not. I did some of the IP, and discussed it with you instead of posting it. I am well aware of what it is about as I am with the doctrine, for obvious reasons. Heck I could even claim more so than most.

This is the first step... And where the firsst step should be, in the case of TOTJO, we (you as well at the time) determined that the first step should be the joining of the organization through an application...

Not really. I didn't do it this way myself. When we designed the rank/status laws, we reused the existing system.The app/oath was the first step toward formally joining the organization, not the community. We've always stressed it is not necessary to become a member of totjo. The only reason why we made it easy for people to find out how they can join is to avoid having too many "I need a master" and "how do i" questions.

Perhaps one day we will be a bit more restrictive in our admittance of members, and then an interview process would be implemented...

Right now, and as long as I am seated here, that wont be the case, lol...

Well that's great and I agree... Though my point, since I first asked ".... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?", is that the changes actually make it even less restrictive, accepting as "Jedi" people who don't even make as much as a "false claim" (using that google definition , or the council's current worries) to try to be jedi or even believe in the force.

One thing we should concider is people who want to be a part of this community but don't necessarily want to go through the Jedi training. Take (I hope he's okay with me using him, I didn't ask first) Rickie for example. Rickie is a frequent poster here and contributes a lot to our discussions, but because he didn't want to take an oath to follow a path that he disagrees with he's been a Guest here the whole time.

This change would allow people like Rickie to actually have a status here beyond someone who is just visiting. It's hard to deny that Rickie is a part of this community. What's the harm in letting people like him be members of our community? We will know that they're not following the same path because if they were they'd be novices or above, but they would still be a recognized as a part of us.

I don't see a problem with that.

ren wrote:

Jestor wrote:

A quick google search shows a highly problematic meaning for an oath. Seriously dude, did you even google it?

Lol, yes....

"Inappropriate", I read as risque....

My apologies, lol....

Also, this thread is about the oath placement, not wording....

I touched on it, yes, but I'm going to refrain from further comment in this thread......

John asked how the oath should read.

Right, I just didnt want you to think I was ignoring that part of your post, I was just letting you know...

"Temple Member" is a status, isnt it?



Yes it does mean that the app is not taken seriously...

In that case why isn't the app (and therefore membership) moved with the oath? Status/rank, whatever. The distinction only serves a purpose when writing law.

Because we feel it is a good place for it...

We still think that it should be a first step...

At this juncture, we feel more good is still coming out of it than bad... SO, it is good where it is...

We are not making rank easier, we are making membership easier...

Which does not in any way invalidate my point: Instead of making people take things more seriously, it dumbs things down for them.

Well, potato, patatoe...

I disagree... lol...

Those that take it serious, will still take it serious, those that dont, still wont...

But, some 'regulars' have commented on the oath being so quick, and in discussing it, we (council) can agree...

Oh yes, people can take the Oath whenever they like...

So basically, you don't actually prevent anyone from taking the oath (btw, why does the new change say it is "given"?) as soon as they've registered, you're just making it easier for people to become members? Totjo used to define a jedi as someone who has submitted the app and taken the oath, does that mean that people who don't believe in the force or in the ways are jedi too now? Or is this being changed as well?

No, we didnt define a Jedi like that...

We defined a TOTJO Jedi like that...

Just being difficult, lol...

Im not sure why someone who didnt believe in the force would join a Jedi organization, but there are Sith here too (shhh) which confuses me, but as we say Jediism is a syncranitic philosophy/religion, let them worry about their beliefs geling together... lol...

Nothing says that those who follow the current policies believe in the force either... I would say the regulars do, but those who never (have not yet) come back? Who can say?

We dont ask that...

And the current Oath just says "pledges allegiance to", it doesnt say "believe", or "understand"...

You have not liked "Novice" since it was discussed, :lol:, and you are stuck with it...

I'm honestly surprised you remember that

Im surprised I know my name on some days, lol... :lol:...

Perhaps one day we will be a bit more restrictive in our admittance of members, and then an interview process would be implemented...

Right now, and as long as I am seated here, that wont be the case, lol...

Well that's great and I agree... Though my point, since I first asked ".... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?", is that the changes actually make it even less restrictive, accepting as "Jedi" people who don't even make as much as a "false claim" (using that google definition , or the council's current worries) to try to be jedi or even believe in the force.

We have always maintained that anyone can call themselves a "Jedi", they dont need us... You said this, I am just agreeing, lol...

Like I am fond of saying, "Not all doctors got 'A's", not all Jedi are going to be "A+" Jedi... There are "D" class too... This is my belief, not an official TOTJO stance...

So, we provide a way for anyone to call themselves Jedi, legally...

Where some sites restrict anyone from calling themselves Jedi, I personally think they face an uphill battle... But, they dont like what we have to say, so, that is their issues to deal with...

Im going off on a tangent, sorry... :lol:... Like the old guy I am, I will start telling you about how we did things in the "old" days, lol...

To address your question:

So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?

By "study" I mean "taken some time to understand" the IP or the doctrine. And by everyone who has joined the site, I don't mean people who have registered an account and left. I mean people who have come here and engage in some way with the website community. that's people who are now knights, people who have remained guests and temple members. Some think it's for them, others do not

This has never been something we ask... Never...

Do we expect it? Well yes... lol... As individuals... I expect you to be continuing to improve, just as you expect it of me... ... But I am old, and it is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, ... But I understand taking breaks along our journey too... "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy"... LOL....

Anyone who wants to call themselves a Jedi, and work toward knighthood ought to be doing that, but TOTJO (and this is the key) does not expect it...

Those who take this serious... Those who engage regularly, are worried less where things are, because this is all part of their journey...

Some just want to 'bask in the glory that is the Force'... :lol:....