Changes to the Simple Oath

Definitely agree with Edan and Steam.

This seems like an excellent idea. Great work, Akkarin, and thank you to the entire Council.

I tend to agree with ren, and think its a retrograde step, but I can understand the positive spin on the change so its no big thing for me, though I had written a few paragraphs but didn't feel it needed to be said...

... then I realized these changes, if considered in the context of the recent forum changes regarding member forum areas, sort of defeats the point of those recent forum changes? Or at the least they are now redundant and could be replaced by the existing Initiate and up forum access level. Since I believe those forum changes were made specifically for people who'd taken the commitment of the Oath.

ren wrote: .... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?

These concerns can be addressed by implementing changes to the app: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/jediapplication

The problem isn't in people saying that they wish to be Jedi, it's more that people have to actually swear an oath to something they don't even know anything about. This would be different to, say, changing the App to saying that by declaring oneself a Jedi we expect them to have a basic understanding and broad agreement with the Doctrine. The training here is for furthering one's understanding of what it means to be a Jedi, we can't expect people right out the bat to already know what that means...

There was also talk of having some kind of Forum Agreement of some sort where people on the forum to agree to abide by our rules.

Good idea.

Adder wrote: ... then I realized these changes, if considered in the context of the recent forum changes regarding member forum areas, sort of defeats the point of those recent forum changes? Or at the least they are now redundant and could be replaced by the existing Initiate and up forum access level. Since I believe those forum changes were made specifically for people who'd taken the commitment of the Oath.

This is one of those rare instances where I disagree with you, Adder. The majority of people that I believed were of concern and who caused me to eventually offer support to the implementation of the Member Discussions section were those who had no interest in becoming associated with the church (by going through the registration process). The Simple Oath wasn't particularly relevant in my mind.

I really like Akkarin's thoughts on adding wording to the application that mandates a basic agreement and certain expectations about what it means to be a Jedi at TotJO. Implementing an additional 'forum agreement' also seems like a good step toward greater understanding and responsibility within the community.

Akkarin wrote:

ren wrote: .... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?

These concerns can be addressed by implementing changes to the app: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/jediapplication

The problem isn't in people saying that they wish to be Jedi, it's more that people have to actually swear an oath to something they don't even know anything about. This would be different to, say, changing the App to saying that by declaring oneself a Jedi we expect them to have a basic understanding and broad agreement with the Doctrine. The training here is for furthering one's understanding of what it means to be a Jedi, we can't expect people right out the bat to already know what that means...

There was also talk of having some kind of Forum Agreement of some sort where people on the forum to agree to abide by our rules.

So swearing an oath to study the prominently-placed teachings is confusing, but submitting the application, full with private details, to individuals/corporation they know nothing about is totally cool?

Not to mention, totjo does not require oath, application or anything else to study the IP. Those who take the oath and send the app as soon as they have created an account do so of their own free will. I discussed sticky points of the Doctrine with TC before taking the oath, and this happened after being put on the board of directors.

Front page wrote: A Member of The Order takes a true oath to follow our Doctrine. Nonetheless all are welcome to register and participate as a guest.

If you wish to become a Member, first register an account and follow these instructions.

If you wish to further your understanding of the Jedi Path then you can begin the Initiate Programme.

How to become a member wrote: Jedi here fulfill the following criteria:

A Jedi believes in the Force. The Force resides within you, surrounds you and flows through you.
A Jedi accepts our teachings and Doctrine they serve as spiritual guidance for Jedi. You may hold other spiritual convictions along with being a Jedi.
A Jedi has taken the Simple Oath.
A Jedi, at TotJO, has completed the Membership Application.

I concur

ren wrote: .... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?

Where does it say that they promise to study the ways of Jediism?

In the Oath, it is wrote: I profess before all my fellow Jedi that I, ........... born on ........, without reservation, choose the Jedi path, until I am ready for Jedi Knighthood or I otherwise decide, with all its duties and responsibilities. I shall do that which is right and profess my allegiance to the Force. During that time I promise to do my utmost to uphold the Jedi teachings, and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi

".... uphold the Jedi teachings [for this organization ive just joined, and whose teachings I havent yet studied] and to live a life as is worthy of a Jedi. [As I see it? As this organization sees it?]

ren wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Akkarin wrote:

ren wrote: .... So, now people who don't even promise to study the ways of jediism can be members?

These concerns can be addressed by implementing changes to the app: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/jediapplication

The problem isn't in people saying that they wish to be Jedi, it's more that people have to actually swear an oath to something they don't even know anything about. This would be different to, say, changing the App to saying that by declaring oneself a Jedi we expect them to have a basic understanding and broad agreement with the Doctrine. The training here is for furthering one's understanding of what it means to be a Jedi, we can't expect people right out the bat to already know what that means...

There was also talk of having some kind of Forum Agreement of some sort where people on the forum to agree to abide by our rules.

So swearing an oath to study the prominently-placed teachings is confusing, but submitting the application, full with private details, to individuals/corporation they know nothing about is totally cool?

Isn't there some kind of logical fallacy about using one thing to make another look bad?

The Application and Oath, while currently required for membership, are not tied together, and I find the fact you would do this, slightly amusing... :lol:....

The oath says nothing about studying the IP...

Nor did we say it was confusing.... ...

We said "it made more sense" to take an Oath after understooding it, that to swear it blindly, and cheapen it for those of us who do take it with a complete understanding (we hope, lol)...

Ren wrote: Not to mention, totjo does not require oath, application or anything else to study the IP. Those who take the oath and send the app as soon as they have created an account do so of their own free will.

Everything here at TOTJO is "of their/your own free will...

I discussed sticky points of the Doctrine with TC before taking the oath, and this happened after being put on the board of directors.

Yep...

And decisions made at the time were good for the time...

As times change, so do decisions...

Sorry you disagree...

I kinda thought you'd agree here... Thinking back to conversations on "elitism"...



Thanks...

Akkarin, we can't forget to change these too...

Adder wrote: I tend to agree with ren, and think its a retrograde step, but I can understand the positive spin on the change so its no big thing for me, though I had written a few paragraphs but didn't feel it needed to be said...

... then I realized these changes, if considered in the context of the recent forum changes regarding member forum areas, sort of defeats the point of those recent forum changes? Or at the least they are now redundant and could be replaced by the existing Initiate and up forum access level. Since I believe those forum changes were made specifically for people who'd taken the commitment of the Oath.

I'm a little confused...

What do you think this has to dobwith forum access?

Recent changes separated guests from members....

Members complete apps, guests generally do not...

Jestor wrote:

Adder wrote: I tend to agree with ren, and think its a retrograde step, but I can understand the positive spin on the change so its no big thing for me, though I had written a few paragraphs but didn't feel it needed to be said...

... then I realized these changes, if considered in the context of the recent forum changes regarding member forum areas, sort of defeats the point of those recent forum changes? Or at the least they are now redundant and could be replaced by the existing Initiate and up forum access level. Since I believe those forum changes were made specifically for people who'd taken the commitment of the Oath.

I'm a little confused...

What do you think this has to dobwith forum access?

Recent changes separated guests from members....

Members complete apps, guests generally do not...

I was just under the impression the recent forum change was to create a space for Temple 'Jedi', as determined by the taking of the Oath. In my eyes the application is irrelevant to one's categorization of themselves as Jedi, that is just to become a Temple member.

As a Mod I understood the proposed changes to reflect a higher standard, so trolling which was in the grey area of allowed by Temple/forum rules, but 'not very Jedi' could be differentiated with different levels of behaviour being expected from those who took the Oath to be Jedi. Now this most recent changes in effect make anyone blw Initiate only a member of the Temple, which is equivalent to a registered guest in regards to their requirement to identify as a Jedi or not.

It's no big deal, its just I saw the previous structure more structured and workable, but at least now people wont be taking an Oath they actually haven't considered properly.