I think i may be going over to the dark side

you hit what i was saying perfectly...although using mathamatics is a new concept for me for it...

It's a heavy burden to carry around a light and dark side of The Force. You may have them but they don't come alone. You have to bear the red side of The Force and the blue Side of The Force and the green side of The Force and the yellow side of The Force and the violet side of The Force and the ....

I did not say you are wrong about the light / dark side of The Force. I said that it is far to heavy a burden for me (John) to have them. I leave those sides to those that understand them and can make use of them.

I do not understand them and I do not know what they mean.

I just have The Force.

It's a heavy burden to carry around a light and dark side of The Force. You may have them but they don't come alone. You have to bear the red side of The Force and the blue Side of The Force and the green side of The Force and the yellow side of The Force and the violet side of The Force and the ....

I did not say you (RedHeron) are wrong about the light / dark side of The Force. I said that it is far to heavy a burden for me (John) to have them. I leave sides to those that understand them and can make use of them.

I do not understand them and I do not know what they mean.

I just have The Force.

Jestor wrote:

ok....
So if I am reading all of the posts correctly, I think we agree that;

1) The Force is neither light or dark, as a whole.

2) The combination of the two (and the shades of grey) is what makes the Force.

3) It is the PERCEPTION of the person(s) involved as to whether or not the action is light/dark, wet/dry.......etc.

+5,+4,+3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5 = where the force is zero and perception (as well as the intent I guess) are the integers.

Does this sum up our thread? Or did I miss the mark?

1) I disagree. It is both at once, like the symbol of the Tao: Yin-Yang. They use black/white and red/green and blue/yellow to show that they are opposing. And in each, the seed of its opposite.

2) This I can agree with. All of it is necessary for the Force to be balanced at all.

3) This is the reason for the confusion... the perceptions are what we give name to, and therefore they are real because we name them. To refuse to name them means that we refuse to name hot or cold, because it's all \"temperature\".

The math isn't wrong, per se... but the whole number line is the Force. The \"0\" point doesn't really exist, unless we arbitrarily name it (as we have already named Light and Dark: we choose such things arbitrarily, yet the fact remains that they are well-defined by perception).

The point of the matter is that the sides exist, are well-defined, and are named because of their capacity. They are different uses of the same thing, it's true, but by their use we understand that the universe is made up of these things in order to keep life going.

Even balance must be balanced by imbalance (if that makes sense).

As a whole, the balances must exist. We have negative numbers and positive, but it's all numbers. They are merely the measurement of what we perceive, and the means by which we can come to a fuller understanding of the universe. They are how we express intent and result... and are neither inherently good nor evil.

We have a light side of the Earth, facing the sun; and facing away from the sun, we have the dark side of the Earth. It's in motion, and it's all the Earth, but there is a definite Light Side and Dark Side, and if there were not, the Earth would not and could not support life.

And with the Force, how can we expect that things are any different?

Apologies, Br.John, I did misinterpret the intent of your prior post. I don't understand what they mean, or what they are... but my own experience shows that they are definitely present. If yours doesn't, I can't expect anything will convince you that the heaviness of a burden of color is Light. (And every pun is intended on that.)

I do appreciate your input, though... if I could understand the idea better, of there being any kind of burden involved, I might be able to accept your explanation better. That it is directly contrary to my experience doesn't help. I just have to accept that your experience has been different.

In this, I respectfully agree to disagree.

Thanks Bro John for the post..it was not my intent to lead anyone to say or believe that these sides do not exist for indeed they do as a manifestation of the Essence of the Force itself. However, as with every manifestation, it is our perception that define how we view it and what \"label\" to put upon it.Such as in the case of math above where you are discussing numbers..I it not our perception of them a number that make them in reality numbers? This is similiar to how I believe the Manifestations of the Force work as well...perhaps I should of phrased it more along the lines of neither yet both as I believe the essence of the Force cannot be contained in either one but the Essence cntains both....

RedHeron wrote:

Apologies, Br.John, I did misinterpret the intent of your prior post. I don't understand what they mean, or what they are... but my own experience shows that they are definitely present. If yours doesn't, I can't expect anything will convince you that the heaviness of a burden of color is Light. (And every pun is intended on that.)

I do appreciate your input, though... if I could understand the idea better, of there being any kind of burden involved, I might be able to accept your explanation better. That it is directly contrary to my experience doesn't help. I just have to accept that your experience has been different.

In this, I respectfully agree to disagree.

I do not disagree with you. I see red as red and I know when it is cold enough to turn on the heater or get a coat. I know an autistic boy who can instantly without effort give the correct result to questions like 24578 x 91357 = ? while I must use a calculator or at least a pencil and paper.

You merely still need these steps and classifications to use The Force like I still need steps and figures to do these math problems. If I were like that child I would not need them to arrive at the same destination.

I'm not judging which way is better. I can only know the way that works for me.

So, the point in what you're saying is then that the Force expresses in different ways to different people, and that each perception is equally valid?

you got it red...but part of that is also realizing that our perception may not necessarily be the \"truth\" of the matter...hence all perceptions are vaild even if they disagree with your own perception...I peronally believe that the \"truth\" or reality lies beyond our perceptions....

Look at the right side then away then at the left side. Which way is she turning?

in the right counter clockwise in the left clockwise

The more specific we try and explain aspects of The Force the more individual point of view it will become. That's not saying \"Whatever anyone says is right\". It does allow for differnet perspectives that are not wrong yet are not the same.

Count in the limitations of language and ... you all get the idea.

RedHeron wrote:

Jestor wrote:

ok....
So if I am reading all of the posts correctly, I think we agree that;

1) The Force is neither light or dark, as a whole.

2) The combination of the two (and the shades of grey) is what makes the Force.

3) It is the PERCEPTION of the person(s) involved as to whether or not the action is light/dark, wet/dry.......etc.

+5,+4,+3,+2,+1,0,-1,-2,-3,-4,-5 = where the force is zero and perception (as well as the intent I guess) are the integers.

Does this sum up our thread? Or did I miss the mark?

1) I disagree. It is both at once, like the symbol of the Tao: Yin-Yang. They use black/white and red/green and blue/yellow to show that they are opposing. And in each, the seed of its opposite.

2) This I can agree with. All of it is necessary for the Force to be balanced at all.

3) This is the reason for the confusion... the perceptions are what we give name to, and therefore they are real because we name them. To refuse to name them means that we refuse to name hot or cold, because it's all \"temperature\".

The math isn't wrong, per se... but the whole number line is the Force. The \"0\" point doesn't really exist, unless we arbitrarily name it (as we have already named Light and Dark: we choose such things arbitrarily, yet the fact remains that they are well-defined by perception).

The point of the matter is that the sides exist, are well-defined, and are named because of their capacity. They are different uses of the same thing, it's true, but by their use we understand that the universe is made up of these things in order to keep life going.

Even balance must be balanced by imbalance (if that makes sense).

As a whole, the balances must exist. We have negative numbers and positive, but it's all numbers. They are merely the measurement of what we perceive, and the means by which we can come to a fuller understanding of the universe. They are how we express intent and result... and are neither inherently good nor evil.

We have a light side of the Earth, facing the sun; and facing away from the sun, we have the dark side of the Earth. It's in motion, and it's all the Earth, but there is a definite Light Side and Dark Side, and if there were not, the Earth would not and could not support life.

And with the Force, how can we expect that things are any different?[/quote]

Redheron, yes, I think we agree, which was my original posts intention. I mean no disrespect and maybe my math should have looked different, being as zero does not exist (for this discussion, how can what does not exist have a name? Nor does not naming something mean it does not exist.)

Ok, how about this math....+5, +4, +3, +2, +1, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5?

If the numbers cancel each other out, what is left?

The Yin Yang blend, the \"/\" line in it shows there is a mid-point. Yet it is still a complete idea. The zero is the line between the positive and negative.

Maybe I am good today and help an old lady (+3), maybe tomorrow, I cut that old lady off in traffic and flip her the bird (-3).

Maybe, that rock that little girl picked up for her pretty collection (+2), that her brother stole to make a weapon: for malice? (-5), self/family preservation (+5), for food (+2)... The numbers are arbitrary. What is important, is the intent.

A man steals (negative) for food to feed his child (positive) from the Grocer. The Grocer see it as bad. But the child sees it as good to have food. (Who would tell the child that the food was stolen?)

This is my last post on this as I am sure we agree, but possibly, due to the limitations of text for a conversation, it makes this more difficult to see...

I do enjoy this site greatly, as I have stated before, the discussions are always food for thought....................

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Well then, the capacity for using the Force (using, LOL) for good or evil is as diverse our viewpoints on the subject. ^^

Everyone else is, ofcourse, invited to debate with us.

Also (I promise i'm not attacking you RedHeron!), Jedi and Sith can't really be considered \"dualities\".

Why can't they?

Anything can be considered to be anything, that is the perogrative of the beholder. What something actally is is another matter all together. Something can have a duality if that duality rests on a common base, eg only one person can have a dual personality or a dual nature. If two people had two different personalities then each would have one and therefore not a dual personality. Sith and Jedi can be considered dual if say one person were to practise both spiritualities. Because each spirituality rests on differing precepts, is expressed in different manners, steer to different goals, are powered by differing motivations based on differing life experiences they cannot per se be dualities. They are different but are existant in their own individual and special way.

Jestor wrote:

Redheron, yes, I think we agree, which was my original posts intention. I mean no disrespect and maybe my math should have looked different, being as zero does not exist (for this discussion, how can what does not exist have a name? Nor does not naming something mean it does not exist.)

I think we agree on some of it, but have differing perspectives. It's the old story about the blind men trying to describe an elephant. We have different perspectives, and that's really pretty awesome!

Jestor wrote:

Ok, how about this math....+5, +4, +3, +2, +1, -1, -2, -3, -4, -5?

If the numbers cancel each other out, what is left?

The Yin Yang blend, the \"/\" line in it shows there is a mid-point. Yet it is still a complete idea. The zero is the line between the positive and negative.

This implies that such a line can exist: if we light a candle in the center of, say a large (and darkened) gymnasium, the area next to the candle is light. The edges of the gym are dark. Is there really a point at which the light becomes dark?

If you believe it is, then stand at that point and look. You will find that there is not an actual line there, from the perspective you're standing on.

There is not an actual center. The candle is the light, the edges are the dark, and everything else is between. There is light and dark, but there is more \"between\" than there is either one. The \"between\" doesn't cancel out light or dark... it's all relative. Closer to the candle will be lighter, and closer to the wall will be darker. Even at the \"midpoint\" there isn't an actual line where it suddenly becomes dark or light.

Jestor wrote:

Maybe I am good today and help an old lady (+3), maybe tomorrow, I cut that old lady off in traffic and flip her the bird (-3).

Maybe, that rock that little girl picked up for her pretty collection (+2), that her brother stole to make a weapon: for malice? (-5), self/family preservation (+5), for food (+2)... The numbers are arbitrary. What is important, is the intent.

A man steals (negative) for food to feed his child (positive) from the Grocer. The Grocer see it as bad. But the child sees it as good to have food. (Who would tell the child that the food was stolen?)

This is my last post on this as I am sure we agree, but possibly, due to the limitations of text for a conversation, it makes this more difficult to see...

I do enjoy this site greatly, as I have stated before, the discussions are always food for thought....................

Intent, as I said, is only one of the many factors which determines the nature of the act. It is an important one, certainly, but if we go around trying to judge others' actions, we will go around in endless circles until we arbitrarily decide what their intent was. It's not something that can be determined from the outside.

I am the only one who really knows for sure what my intent is.

It's a pity you're deciding not to continue... I would have liked to have learned more about your perspective on this. My issue is that I really don't see how what you're saying can apply within my own experience... it raises doubt in me about my own experience, until I can figure out enough about what you mean to really understand it.

Anyone else want to field this in Jestor's place, perhaps help me to understand how there cannot be either side, when we see + and - on the list (which, if combined, do cancel one another out... but sitting there on either side of the \"zero\" as they are, they are quite separate and distinct, even if they are connected by the same number line).

Angelus wrote:

Well then, the capacity for using the Force (using, LOL) for good or evil is as diverse our viewpoints on the subject. ^^

Well, I wasn't talking about good or evil, really, more just Light Side and Dark Side of the Force. Good and evil are generally determined by intent.

Light Side and Dark Side are separate and distinct, and defined by our values... but simply saying they don't exist implies (to me) that the Force has no potential. It must have the ability to flow, which implies that there are different parts to the Force, if we stick to what we know about natural rules.

What one calls Light or Dark is determined by values, but that doesn't negate that they are there. Br. John says that he can't deal with the separation (for him, it's all one Force), but I don't understand how this can be, since I can't follow the reasoning used. The argument is one of colors, but all colors are of the Light. There is no burden to me, and so the idea of a burden is foreign (and though I accept Br. John's belief in this regard, I don't understand). We spoke for a bit on the topic, and I respect the belief... but what I really would like is to be able to \"get it\" enough to really see it, whether I change my mind to agree or not.

As I try to follow the reasoning, my own over-logical brain demands a basis in something familiar in order to draw a comparison. Even in water, there is a flow, expansion, return, and immobilization (think of water, steam, condensation, and ice). These have Light and Dark capacity.

I'm unable to find anything in Nature that I can't see as having both capacities, nor can I simply accept that the opposing capacities of creation and destruction are the same (as they are plainly not).

The issue is the ancient problem of good / evil - light / dark and all this within the context of The Force.

There are Dark Lords / Ladies of The Force. Dark means unseen / undetectable / difficult to detect and so on. Their use and knowledge of The Force is without effort and they can walk right past a person they want to avoid and that person will not notice them. That's one example of a handy ability.

There ARE sides to The Force AND there are NO sides to The Force. That's the simple truth. If you're (as in anyone reading this) stuck on one side of this coin and can't grasp it in your bones - keep trying.