ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

First, I'd like to thank Alethea for tackling this. She has put in a lot of effort to look at something a lot of us look at only a few times. I 100% support Alethea. I believe the need does exist. And I would caution us from getting too deep (too late) or continuing a "conservative" vs "progressive" style debate because this, for me, isn't about the doctrines being "broken", but rather the wording/communication/expression being something that had room for improvement. If you believe in the Jedi Path, then I dare say we should all recognize that we aren't perfect. We're trying to "get somewhere". And because we aren't perfect, nothing we create, is by definition... perfect. The idea that someone could come along later and improve something doesn't mean what was previously there is wrong or that changing it is some form of disrespect. I love who I was 30 years ago. That doesn't mean I have to think, believe, or speak the same as I did back then. So for all those who are like "why do we need to do this?" The real question is "why not do it?" Things grow. Things evolve. This includes the Force and we, as expressions of it.

Second, I had the honor of helping in this endeavor and I really respect the fact that Alethea was open to other people putting their 2 cents in and making it a group effort. Part of what I'm hearing is a desire to be vague in order to accommodate the multitude of thought expressed in TOTJO. Allow me to make some of you uncomfortable once again by talking about race, lol. Not on purpose, of course. I love all you guys and desire understanding above all.

In the black community (which I can speak for to some extent) there is a beautiful multitude of shades and color in the physical sense just as there are plenty of views and ideas. It is not hardly a monolith and yet is still represented by one single word. "Black". And even this word has certain controversies attached, but the power comes from having a shared experience which produces a common culture.

Religion, we need to keep in mind, for all this "we wanna be a religion/church" is, in reality, dangerous.

Most religions do have different sects. Christianity has thousands. The problem with sects is that they don't always tend to mix very well. They sometimes have their own words or their own definitions and meanings. This may be somewhat unavoidable. Beliefs tend to clash. The more "out there" a belief is the more it will clash with folks who are more into logic and reason.

What I want to see is more of a common culture and shared experience being the connective tissue that links us all together. Because if you want me to believe "Reiki" is Jedi.... I'm going to respectfully disagree every time. And we can debate that point but I'm probably not going to be convinced. Just being real with you. I don't want to make the same mistakes religions from antiquity have made where they change the story to match their beliefs. There should be a difference between what "WE BELIEVE" and what "I (personally) believe". This is important because if I had seen "Jedi believe ....Reiki.... " in the doctrine I probably would have moved on. The doctrines are a place for the people who are not Jedi to understand what a Jedi is and what we believe. The whole "its a mystery" thing is not the right place for doctrines. Doctrines are what you believe, not what you think might possibly potentially maybe I dunno idk err could be. Rastafarians have a lot of diversity of thought too. And that is also classified as a religion. But guess what? There are Rastas that don't believe in the bible, Rastas that are into more Kemetic practices, etc.

Because Doctrines are mostly for people on the outside looking in (also internal organizing helps when you start off with something more simple) it needs to be clear and simple and free of grammatical and spelling issues. If I'm with my family and I'm telling them what I believe and I obviously want them to take me seriously, I don't want them googling something in the back ground with spelling errors and contradictions. The idea that contradictions are somehow helpful, no... I disagree and am more than happy to debate that with you.

I want being Jedi to be like being black. It doesn't mean we have to all agree but that there is a common core of experience and understanding that we can all support and maintain. And if there are Jedi who personally believe in fairies and trolls, then that okay. That's them. It doesn't need to be an entire sect. And arguably sects already exist between light, dark, and grey. The point of updating the doctrines is not to fundamentally change all of this but rather to make it all sound better. Using fewer words is part of that process, and this is coming from a guy who uses MANY MANY words. Fewer words is like shorter urls. It's better if you can do it because its easier to convey, easier to memorize, easier to tweet, etc. It's easier to digest. Now if you want something more wordy then link the simple doctrine to a more lengthy article that provides in-depth explanation/analysis. That's why hyperlinks were invented. You can have your cake and eat it too.

But someone's going to feel left out. Really?

I don't recall intending to do this when I gave my recommendations and again, everyone was invited to help in the effort.

I think my original suggestion was:
Jediism is a religious path and school of thought based on the understanding and personal attunement to the Force, an omnipresent and etheric divine energy that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the fundamental nature of the universe. A Jedi further believes that the Force is manifest through all life, and thusly seek to unlock the mystery of how to balance and eventually become one with the Force through enlightenment rooted in philosophies similar to those present in the epic space opera called “Star Wars”.

I do support other versions but I want to go over some notes about this one that can help inform or consolidate other attempts. Please keep in mind these are just my suggestions/opinions/experience based on being in and around several religions over the course of 40 years.

1. Jedi
I think its important to note that things should be balanced as much as possible which means providing limits. Do you want to be so vague that you sound like every other religion? Because if you sound like every other religion then what's the point or purpose of saying "Jedi"? There has to be a point to using that word; otherwise you make to no effect.

2. "omnipresent, etheric, divine"
these words were not chosen at random. Oxygen is pretty "ubiquitous" but there's no religion based around the presence of oxygen. the word omnipresent captures the same meaning and intention but it has a religious connotation which gives the Force a more distinct flavor. But when YOU use the words, YOU get to define them beyond the common usage. So if you don't want to use this word or that because you think it belongs to someone else, rethink that. Because if you keep thinking like that every religious word will become off limits to you. If Jediism is a religion to you or a "religious path" as it is to me, then you have to take ownership of religious terminology and use it in the way that YOU mean. There were many words in the bible that were honorifics used for the king. In Christianity these same words are only used for God because they became disconnected with the original meaning. The Force IS "godlike or like a God". Do it is, by definition, "divine" and I'm not scared to say so. If it is NOT divine then why have a religion at all? Might as well be a book club. Again, if you ask Rastafarians about Selassie, they will definitely tell you he is divine and that mutual respect and adoration is a common thread.

Etheric- (Ether) 5. Physics An all-pervading, infinitely elastic, massless medium formerly postulated as the medium of propagation of electromagnetic waves.

I chose words that were both religious and scientific because I think we can all agree that the Force (in some form) exists, that it is everywhere, and that we are connected to it and we all respect it. If any of these things is NOT true I would say "that's interesting" and probably wonder why you're here. This isn't to say I want to exclude people or "weed out" anyone, but rather offer a clear sense of what it is and why we're here.

3. Star Wars.
I don't care who doesn't like it. If Star Wars was somehow erased from the pages of history, we would not be here on this site. I just wouldn't exist. Jediism or whatever version of whatever you want to call it, would simply not exist. And so I think its important to mention the source of inspiration because you're not going to be able to hide from it and you should be scared of being connected to it. Why? What are you trying to hide? That you like Star Wars? Just accept it. You think people don't know because you add some extra letters at the end? Who are you fooling? Embrace it. People are going to come to this site and see pics of people posing with toy light sabers. You can't get around it so stop trying to. Embrace it. It's far more honest and people will respect you for that honesty. We use the same exact Jedi Code you can find on wookipedia. As long as that is true then we are Jedi. Period. It's up to us to define what that means and not try to dodge every word that could possibly rub someone the wrong way. Use hyperlinks and make them understand it.

If we can't write a wikepedia article similar to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_theology

...because we're too afraid of making someone feel left out then don't tell me its a religion because at that point its just a club for people of DIFFERENT RELIGIONS who have a SHARED INTEREST in Star Wars mythology.

Now if we just want to be a club that's fine. But if we cannot build on a core value system with beliefs and practices that reinforce our doctrines, because we're too afraid of people calling themselves Jedi but not being able to fit in, then we're basically just a club, trying to define itself by anyone who shows up for the party. Someone shows up to the party with a birthday cake we'll say its a birthday party. Someone comes in a mouse costume we'll call it a costume party. Someone brings a rifle we'll call it a hunting party. As some point YOU have to define what kind of party it is so that people who show up know what its about and everyone isn't defining and redefining us based on whatever they personally choose to bring. But you have to decide. Club or religion. This, imo, is where we need to agree and build upon a common foundation.

I have a question about doctrine, which might seem minor, but I feel (at the moment) will inform all other aspects of doctrine...


Do Jedi seek to only understand the world, or do they seek to submit it to their will?

Before all the "oh, subjugating things is a dark/sith/bad guy/whatever I don't care trait" - the doctrine says things like "Guard", and many members here have, in one way or another, suggested a Jedi is bound to act as a sort of everything-police, (even if that is in a "good way" like protecting someone who is being kicked when down etc etc)

To be a Jedi, does that mean at some point you have to decide that your will is correct, and use your resources to change the reality around you to be aligned with your will.

It's a little thing, perhaps, but it sets the tone for whether the Jedi "mission" for lack of a better word is an internal one, or an external one.

If we are to look at the fiction as a reference point, then in a way it is the case that the Jedi are forcing their own philosophy upon the world in the pursuance of what they perceive is Peace. Though, even they have an understanding that there needs to be struck a delicate balance. Perhaps the best example of this is in Episode I when Qui-Gon explains it's not the Jedi's mission to liberate slaves, and Anakin ends up being an exception.

I think one of the things that sets the Jedi apart from the other religious groups is what would also set it apart in the real world: That it IS about building a stronger world, not about understanding it. There's an active component that is necessary for the Jedi Path. To quote a fictional resource (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook):
"Although the Jedi existed to serve the Force, they were funded by the senate because they served the public interest. If Jedi were unable to use the Force, they would continue to serve, because that was their duty. The fact that the Force was real, and that the Jedi were its most prolific and devoted practitioners, only strengthened their resolve to use it for good."

Before someone gets into how Christianity also has a charitable aspect- Most Christian groups do it just because they want to, not because it is commanded. They, on average, do not believe in works being necessary to get into heaven.

Ultimately, there is another question to be had here: Are you really imposing your will, or are you imposing what you believe is the Will of the Force? In either case, it doesn't seem to me that the Jedi Path is about enlightenment. It's about how we seek to improve the world, which does require you to understand it...but understanding is merely a component necessary to impose the will of the Jedi Path- which may or may not be something you attribute to yourself but rather the Force.

Hope I didn't lose you in all that.

Heres a proposal i know everyones going to love; lets put the whole thing up for review.

“Jedi Believe” comes across as mostly a low key statement of political positions. Im not saying theres anything wrong with that but is it really how want to start off on the topic? And when people ask “what do Jedi believe?” is this how we really answer? And are those the most important things that all Jedi here actually believe? And isnt the whole page a treatise on what Jedi believe? Why are these beliefs sectioned separately from the others?

I rather like the three tenets; knowledge, focus, wisdom. These definitely come across as jedi-like, but are they tenets?

Tenet: a principle, belief, or doctrine generally held to be true.

Are we saying that knowledge, focus, and wisdom are principles or doctrines that we hold to be true? Arent we kind of misusing the word and failing to adequately articulate what we’re trying to say? Speaking of which, the clarifying statement given for knowledge (“knowledge can be acquired by focusing on the task at hand”) is.... not wrong, but misses the point. Knowledge can be acquired via study and experience. Yea we have to pay attention and i agree with emphasizing mindfulness in the pursuit of knowledge but look, “the task at hand” could be watching “kids-fail” videos on youtube.

And why are there three of them? Is three a magical number in Jediism or are these truly the 3 definitive “tenets” of what we’re doing here? What about courage or compassion? Or the pursuit of excellence? How about reverence? What about service? Conscientiousness?
It feels to me like someone just thought it sounded cool and enlightened to have three tenets and 16 teachings and 21 maxims but, does it? Why is that the format?

The Code.... do we want to use the fictional Jedi teachings as the model for our belief structure? I personally see it as a fantastical mishmash of woo and NEATO! and really dislike treating it as if it is philosophically valid. That being said, i consider the “yet” version of the Code as one of the rare exceptions. It has a very taoist feel to me and its fair enough as a sort of mantra or meditation piece. And i just dont see people agreeing to throwing out the code/s. Fair enough. Disney hasnt come for us yet, so; sure, lets roll with it if we want. Is that what we want?

The Creed: while i do genuinely love the content in the Prayer of St Francis, ITS THE PRAYER OF ST FRANCIS. We’re plagiarizing a scratch of Christian literature and passing it off as a foundational piece of Jediism, altering the source material AND failing to acknowledge it as if we expect no one to notice; does this come across as hokey to anyone else? For my part, this is the only piece of Doctrine im ready to say i definitely think should be done away with. Its too contrived. Its not ours.

I think theres some good stuff in the 16 teachings and the 21 Maxims. In fact, id say these are the best part of the Doctrine (though the wording could definitely be improved) because (even though i see influence from the fiction) theyre pretty reasonable and seem organic to the community. They both feel like they could be (at least in part) a distillation of the real lessons and experiences of a developing religion. Are they, though? Are they accurate distillations of today’s Jediism?
And again, why 16 and 21? Are these the 16 and 21 most important principles of Jediism? And whose teachings and maxims are they, anyways? Whats the process for deciding what makes it into Doctrine and what doesnt?

I know, we can barely get a consensus on altering the font that the Doctrine is written in, lol, theres no way everyone is going to agree on any serious textual changes. But isnt the Temple supposed to be in a growing phase, right now? All this stuff made sense at the time it was written, i get it. I dont “blame” the Doctrine for being under-developed and i definitely do not mean any disrespect to the people who put it together: this whole thing was new at the time and everyone was working from scratch. They did a great job for where they were but the community has matured a lot since then, maybe now is a good time for the Doctrine to mature along with it?

So I'm confused?? I've only been here a short while but I have been told over and over that the movies are not supposed to be used as reference, that we are actually supposed to get away from that thinking. But this talk which seems an important talk brings that to front and center?? So do jedi follow the teachings of the movies or not?

Fyxe wrote: So I'm confused?? I've only been here a short while but I have been told over and over that the movies are not supposed to be used as reference, that we are actually supposed to get away from that thinking. But this talk which seems an important talk brings that to front and center?? So do jedi follow the teachings of the movies or not?

You'll never stop being confused if you just keep moaning about this instead of looking at the wide variety of information about Jedi and star wars outside of the films (which very much contains the answers to your questions, in no uncertain terms). You skillfully dodge the answers you've been repeatedly given, and ignore the information simply because you don't like the increasingly frustrated tone.

It's not even relevant to your learning here, outside the fact that, even within the fiction, what it meant to be Jedi was re-defined many times- why is that, in the process of real world application, than, so strange to you?

I think you're much too fixated on your expectations when compared to the real world, here. Read through wookieepedia and scour youtube essays and what not if it matters that much, but maybe you're energy would be better spent on your studies here, and what being Jedi means to you, without being so concerned about what other people think?

The fiction has its place as a point of inspiration. If we are talking about what is and isn’t Jedi, it stands to reason that when building a structure you should return to the source to ensure you’re not venturing too far from it.

Source and inspiration are different. I can be inspired by Diogenes without living in a barrel

I rather like the three tenets; knowledge, focus, wisdom. These definitely come across as jedi-like, but are they tenets?

Semantics of the word "tenet" aside (I imagine "Pillars" could serve)

there is a charm to three....basic things....
Everyone loves the triforce - Power Courage and Wisdom.....but we can't just steal that.

A thought though, in...lets call it "achieving goals", there are three "basic tools" you need. They have stupid names depending on who you ask, but they can more or less be referred to as "Will" "Knowledge" and "Resources"

(Will could just as easily be Courage, Knowledge could be Wisdom, and Resources could be power....)

Now this comes a bit into my previous question - does a Jedi seek to enforce their will on the world? and if that is so - the pillars for a Jedi could easily be Knowledge (the things you know, or that can be known), Will (the desire and focus to achieve what can be achieved) and Resources (the power and expendable material required to do the things that can be done - this can include your own body, as a "resource" to be built and put to task, but just as easily be the good faith of your allies, or your political influence, or monies, etc etc)

I don't put forth my "three things" as being inherently Jedi, but they are the "Three things" required to "achieve goals"

They can also, rather readily, be understood or taught concepts, which might be handy for a church with so many people eager to learn....

Am i enforcing my will on the world when i vote?
What about if i donate to a politician?
If i join a politicians campaign?
If i convince other people to vote for him/her?
What if i have billions of dollars and i only donate to politicians who will write laws that protect my company?
What if i hack all the voting machine in a given district?

Most stories of the Jedi involve them completing some difficult mission; a Jedi who cant achieve a goal is as useful as anyone else who cant achieve a goal lol. Id say the issue is the ethics of how we do it?

I had this whole response typed up and lost it....lol. Let’s try again, maybe I can shorten it:

While Diogenes may or may not have lived in a barrel, I think one would argue that his works would be the source and inspiration for anyone responsibly trying to follow his direction. . Just like Christ’s works and the writings after him are the source and inspiration of Christianity.

I’m actually a huge proponent of distancing ourselves from the fiction...but not as a scholar. That is:
1) Don’t use it as scripture. It’s written in a fictional world, and can easily be written in favor of any character. The philosophy written within it can be analyzed against the real world and vetted though. And I think that’s worthwhile.
2) Don’t force followers to a fictional dress code (outside of appropriate ceremony or events).
3) Don’t force followers to take up lightsaber training, though if you -want- to be an elitist group I’m fine with forcing membership to take up a Martial Art of their choosing. Personally, I don’t- I just insist that you take care of your health to the measure you can.
4) Don’t take a stance that you have to learn to communicate with ETs so you can help cultivate “peace in the galaxy”. You laugh or “Uhg, now you’re just making things up”, but I’ve met 2 “Jedi” that insisted upon this and for a -while- they had significant pull in their corner of the community.

Distancing ourselves from the fiction doesn’t mean throwing it all out. The 16 Teachings and 21 Maxims came from people that took what they saw in the fiction and put it into something which could be used in the real world. If you study the original content of each document and compare it to the fiction you can find how both fit together with a fair amount of ease. It may be a bit more difficult to see it with the evolved writing from ToTJO knights over the years, but it is still present.

As it concerns the Tenets, the fiction has 3 pillars: Force, Knowledge & Self-Displine. If we are going to change the word from “Tenet”, Knowledge, Focus and Wisdom are each listed as one of the 40 Virtues, maybe “Virtue” would be more appropriate?

lol, Looks like this got typed up longer than the last.

Rex wrote: Source and inspiration are different. I can be inspired by Diogenes without living in a barrel

Yes, however, let me ask this again.

Are we a club or a religion?

In Christianity people are inspired by the same God that also issues commands and tells them how to live. It would lack all cohesion if they were inspired by God and then don't do ANYTHING God asked them to do. If that's the case then why call it a religion? I'm inspired by the grass and trees. I don't have one inspiration. I have many. Goku inspires me to power up and push beyond limits. That's the point. But there is no "church of Goku" that I'm aware of and even if their was I wouldn't join it because I have no reverence for Goku. Does that make sense?

Inspiration alone does not make a religion, much like the JC saying that "man shall not live by bread alone" but by what? "every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

2 Things. 1... I wish we had more quotes of purely Jedi origin. 2... unlike Christianity we don't have "and thus saith the Force, thou shalt ________ and _________". We're more like an Eastern religion in many ways where the "thus saith" is from a wise master.

Thus it would make sense for us (although this is somewhat off topic so please forgive me) to use material from Jedi masters (both real and fictional!) if there are wise sayings that can be quoted.

The idea that "oh you can't use that because that's fictional"... I WHOLLY reject because I spent about 25-30 years of my life believing in and using fictional quotes from the bible. And guess what? I'm okay. If I quote something it's not simply because I'm a robot who must always beep beep bop beep no matter what [system reboot] but rather I quote things I resonate with. And a lot of people still resonate with Christianity and other religions which is why there is definitely a place for that here, but there should also, at least equally, be a place for something that is more reflective of a uniquely Jedi perspective.

To some extent this may not exist. No matter what we say its going to sound at least a little like something else. But to me, its the combination, like a balanced diet with vitamins and minerals... its that balance... that is (for me) Jediism. That, for me, is what makes it not just a club. But that's only if there are doctrines and teachings built on top of that foundation.

One one side you have religions that seek power and domination (Christianity, Islam) and on the other you have religions that seek harmony. I think many of us are trying to choose one or the other, thinking we have to make that choice when the answer is that we don't and by making that choice we actually make the other side STRONGER. But the only way you SEE this, imho, is by understanding the Jedi Path. The problem is that people view this path differently and have different beliefs about it because their teachings don't match their inspiration. It's a critical judgment against the inspiration to say that it cannot provide the teachings. I fundamentally disagree with this as someone who has seen, not just all the movies, but read many of the EU books and played the games. There is a deep well of teachings because we're dealing with art which always exposes the mind of the artist.

The pure Eastern doesn't work because the more Jedi disengage from the world the more problems face society and people react to these problems either by engaging or disengaging. Taoism and Buddhism hasn't helped to create a Utopian society and weren't meant to but look at modern day China and what it needs to borrow from the West in terms of freedom. If you disengage while someone is taking your power, if you do not defend yourself, then you simply perpetuate everything that you see which makes you react by trying to be non-reactive. That in itself is a paradox of irony because this if not all religions wouldn't exist without a human need acting as a catalyst for a reaction.

The pure Western doesn't work because, imo, although it does want things to change and isn't against working for it, it also serves to remove the individual from the hero role and replace them with a prophet, a messiah/Christ, or external personalized deity who knows YOU and loves YOU. The problem with this is that it's always right so even if the world is a hellscape of our own creation, the responsibility is removed onto a third party for creating and for eventually fixing it. And so people disengage with the world and the role of the individual in connecting with others the more we connect to this outside deity which is like a smart phone. How much people are on smart phones today is kinda like how people approach religions.

We really need no doctrine at all, especially not one written by a f**king committee.

We need some guide posts that help to remind us of our tripartite anthropology, our guiding ethics and some warnings to be aware of the dangers of "fighting evil" (sometimes we ourselves are the "evil").

We need bylaws to be an institution, but must we be a church ? What does that qualification bring us other that behaviour which, in many ways, bears witness to not only a lack of faith, but a faith bankruptcy altogether.

Religious texts are not Religion : re-ligios is deeply existentially transcendental and cannot be written (except in metaphor), only shared. Religions cannot be agreed thoughtfully, one can at best bring understanding and a measure of syncretism to others' hermeneutics. It is this partage that makes for a Religion, never, NEVER strict obedience to Code, Creed, Culte...

May the Force be with us.

OB1Shinobi wrote: Am i enforcing my will on the world when i vote?
What about if i donate to a politician?
If i join a politicians campaign?
If i convince other people to vote for him/her?
What if i have billions of dollars and i only donate to politicians who will write laws that protect my company?
What if i hack all the voting machine in a given district?

Most stories of the Jedi involve them completing some difficult mission; a Jedi who cant achieve a goal is as useful as anyone else who cant achieve a goal lol. Id say the issue is the ethics of how we do it?

I BELIEVE (which is always a statement that could be true or false) that Jedi should be critical of both sides of the equation in order to continuously work to BALANCE that equation.

In other words... (and this is not at all directed at any one person but us in general)

How much should we engage? Enough to make a positive difference and not so much that it creates a bigger problem. The fictional Jedi order went back and forth in this respect and never really got it right because like the Architect in the Matrix, their versions of order were often too rigid which created anomalies like Revan. One could even say that the sith, as a group, are an anomaly of Jedi creation stemming from failed attempts to balance the Force.

As a religion, the Force doesn't tell us what to do. It doesn't tell us to balance it or not to balance it. I, as an expression of the Force, see the need to balance the distribution of power in my own life: not just the power that I have but the power that others attempt to leverage against me. There are environmental forces, political forces, physical forces, emotional forces, etc., each one acting upon the I (Self) in a way that could change that individual in a positive or negative direction. And then each individual, through participation in the equation of life, adds to one side winning or losing, every person effects the results of the equation. We're all connected through this equation. So it should be both an individual (hero's) journey as well as a public service for the greater good because it is the greater good of all (everyone connected). That is Jediism to me and it is absolutely informed by what I've observed comparing the fictional star wars franchise to our very real world.

So the idea that one has to choose.... fiction vs non-fiction, not to be harsh or antagonistic or in any way disrespectful, but to me this idea is "unwise" to an extreme. Stop trying to choose one side or the other when BOTH have validity.

Those who talk about "Grey" I think are really those who sense the fundamental problem with the classical Jedi (Which is the fictional Jedi) normalization of rigid adherence to self righteousness. But none of us can get behind that which is why we play with terms like Jedi realist (imo). Grey Jedi isn't really a thing. They're just Jedi with a view that opposed that of one or more fictional Jedi COUNCILs. The council doesn't necessarily represent all Jedi thought; never has. Not fictional, DEFINITELY not non-fictional. If we don't define Jedi with this understanding in mind then we're going to strain relationships and keep this sort of quiet segregation going on in which we are unintentionally creating useless factions within TOTJO and Jediism in general (although I don't notice this as much outside TOTJO to be fair). But this is why having doctrines is important. Because we need to spell things out in a way that people can agree on what they agree on and know where they fit in. And if they don't fit in, that's okay too. That's a reality that one has to accept.

And once we get on the same page, guess what? There IS work out there to do. Not just individual work, but corporate work. If you don't think the Jedi are needed then you need to pay more attention to the world around you. In much the same way that Democracy was under attack in the prequel trilogy, Democracy itself is under attack today. We have Russian bots acting as a droid army, that may have (in combination with other things) had an effect on our 2016 election. And where were we? Euphemistically polishing our light sabers? Unable to sense the dark side growing stronger? I sensed it. Didn't some of you? We're living in a world were fundamentalists of different religions are working together though apart from each other, to destroy our planet because they think in doing so they'll go to heaven. How is that unlike Anakin killing younglings because, in doing so, he thought he could achieve the power to protect the one he loved? And the reason why the Jedi (When we can, and yes I'm irritated by this, finally figure out what we are!) are needed is because the answer to all this extremism from one side isn't extremism from the other. It is a NEUTRALIZING effect from the middle. Think about what happened with the founders of the US put in place the separation between church and state.... GENIUS move. But don't stop there. Think about the separation between 3 co-equal branches of government! And heck yeah the number 3 should be significant. Left, Right, and CENTER. Balance. Everything we do should be about balance. If we keep flip flopping between 2 sides we wont get anywhere or get anything done. We have two feet where one walks in front of the other because they are 1 (connected) at the hip! The ONE... balances and controls both sides!

When it comes to the specifics the key question to ask yourself is "who am I"? Because guess what? You are The Force manifested in a body. Therefore you should vote your interests and make sure your representatives represent you. It's that simple. But Corporately... "we" as a group and body politic, should fight for our rights, for our common ideals like for Democracy, for Justice, for Human Rights, for Equality, for Peace. All of the ideals that we can capitalize into their own constructs. We should all fight for those things in general, making sure they work for all people, and then individually make sure they work for us. If they don't work for us then they don't work for all people. It's all about balance. And just as power should give and take we should also give and take when it comes to our needs. When women gained more rights, it hurt men because they now had to compete with women in the labor market. When the slaves were freed it hurt a bunch of people who had to compete in the labor market. But just because something disadvantages you doesn't mean its wrong or shouldn't be done. There has to be a balance there that doesn't uphold the personal over the corporate good. And guess what? You might have daughters. You may have a wife who's impacted. You may have black friends who are impacted. We're all connected.

I think the fiction provides a wealth of knowledge that gives us something to go on outside of our real life experience. And yes... this is a good thing because it serves as kind of a check and balance on our reality; a reality that people are constantly trying to escape from and turning to fiction in order to do that. People think it has to be real in order to be legitimate because they're scared how it will be judged. But no, that's the wrong question. What really matters is whether these truths are "self-evident". If that's the case it doesn't matter who the hell said it; whether it was one of the founding fathers of America or whether it was Yoda or the guy who put words in Yoda's mouth. It doesn't matter. And if Christians are being honest, it doesn't matter who wrote the gospels to them. Jesus didn't make the teachings appealing. The teachings made Jesus appealing. People followed Jesus because of his teachings, not the other way around. If we're talking about doctrine, we have to understand this.

And so when the fictional Jedi fought for Justice and Democracy and Freedom, these were the same ideals that exist today. How can we claim these ideals personally if we don't fight for them at the corporate scale? I personally think its a little embarrassing when children are out there speaking up and challenging adults to act on climate change, on gun violence, etc. and Jedi are... what are we doing? Still trying to figure out what we believe or whether or not the fiction we're obviously inspired by has any value beyond a name and the Jedi code? This is not rocket science. No, I don't want to play Jedi dress up any more than most Christians dress like Jesus. I think that'd be ridiculous. HOWEVER, if you don't stand for what Jesus stood for, and you're a Christian, then what's the point of calling yourself that because Christian means follower of Christ. I'm here to follow the Jedi Path. But to me that doesn't mean just polishing a light saber and occasionally arguing about whether reiki is a Force power. I want to apply Jediism to real life which means health, politics, etc. And if someone doesn't want to do that then maybe a "club" is what they're looking for. But we have to decide whether we're a club or religion.

It just seems to me that there is no way you can be a Jedi if you do not study the ways and ideas of.... yes... THE JEDI! The source of these ideas and ways is the movies and yes that is the source and the inspiration of all of this. I dont know why are people denying this now? Its like peter denying christ! lol and nobody even knows if Jesus was real and we dont even know if buddha or any of those guys were real. so if they have no problem telling people that why should Jedi?

I am glad to hear the sacred texts here are based on the fiction and it just seems to me it shojuld stay that way and that it should get even deeper into that sort of stuff. I see that people here will quote yoda or obi wan and why not? they are the example that the people here strive to be right? they are our jesus. and darth vader is our devil, or the emperor I suppose and darth vader is a demon lmoa! and those guys had supernatural powers like Jesus. none of his followers did though so that is like us. but modern day christians use his power to heal people all the time or ask for miracles and why cant Jedi try and do that same thing? I for one just think thats what needs to be the heart of the doctrine.

Alexandre Orion wrote:

We really need no doctrine at all, especially not one written by a f**king committee.

Sorry, but with all due respect, this feels like one extreme (like a sort of anarchy) demonizing collective organization which is odd coming from one in a position that I assume was recognized by a committee. I hope I misunderstood what you were intending to say.

We need some guide posts that help to remind us of our tripartite anthropology, our guiding ethics and some warnings to be aware of the dangers of "fighting evil" (sometimes we ourselves are the "evil").

"what about the dangers of NOT fighting evil?" Of course, if we had a simple set of Doctrines that speak to commonly held ideals that represent Jedi we ould EXTEND that into teachings from different masters. One master could talk about the dangers of fighting evil and another could talk about the dangers of not. But I see no value in not being organized. It's just a matter of how you do it.

We need bylaws to be an institution, but must we be a church ? What does that qualification bring us other that behaviour which, in many ways, bears witness to not only a lack of faith, but a faith bankruptcy altogether.

Again, like I said, a lot of people may not feel the whole religion/church type of rhetoric and this mainly comes from a sharp criticism of other religions who se simultaneously disdain and copy/mimic. But it isn't about demonizing certain words. It's about reclaiming their original identities and using them in a manner in which we ourselves define. If we allow the words we use to be "owned" by other religions then we'll be in the shadow of those religions. Other religions don't do that. Christianity doesn't care what Islam thinks a prophet is or vice versa. They each have their own ideas. Same with the word God and Allah. These have the same meaning but are simply two different languages. So its all about what the religion means when it uses it. It's religion that makes it "God" instead of "god". So staying away from these words simply allows these other religions more legitimacy.

Religious texts are not Religion : re-ligios is deeply existentially transcendental and cannot be written (except in metaphor), only shared. Religions cannot be agreed thoughtfully, one can at best bring understanding and a measure of syncretism to others' hermeneutics. It is this partage that makes for a Religion, never, NEVER strict obedience to Code, Creed, Culte...

McDonald's menu is not fast food. But try ordering fast food without a menu. When you have shared text then you have a medium through which all of your unique ideas can be communicated. If I go to Burger King and try to order using the McDonald's menu, the employees would laugh and think I was stupid. And if, what I really want is McDonald's, then why the hell am I at Burger King? A doctrine basically the menu that defines what a person from the outside is going to find when they come here. If we cannot communicate that in a simple and non-confusing way then we're doing a disservice to the company. If people need pictures on the menu then give them pictures because its all to help people understand what they're communicating. If I have to explain the difference between a Big Mac and Whopper to restaurant when I could just say the single word name of the sandwich... then everyone's going to be frustrated and I MIGHT be at the wrong place. So yes we need a menu not some vague sandbox that is part of the problem of most religions.

A lot of the doctrines we have could even be broken down to single words like the whopper.

Justice, Loyalty, Truth, Wisdom, Knowledge, Peace, etc. But that's kind of where the Code (which is part of the doctrine which obviously comes from the fictional Jedi) comes in. Where as we then add extra words to add more "clay" to shape it into something with more dimension and definition. And then at this point the "masters" whoever we consider them to be, should have the task of defining it further through repetitive teachings to reinforce them.

Sorry for speaking out. Evidently, everyone else knows better, so I'll just go back in the library and read.

Yes, I was recognised as a master once by the Council. I'm not sure that is still the case. Mastery is the realisation of how much one has not mastered ... and probably cannot.

Fyxe wrote: It just seems to me that there is no way you can be a Jedi if you do not study the ways and ideas of.... yes... THE JEDI! The source of these ideas and ways is the movies and yes that is the source and the inspiration of all of this. I dont know why are people denying this now? Its like peter denying christ! lol and nobody even knows if Jesus was real and we dont even know if buddha or any of those guys were real. so if they have no problem telling people that why should Jedi?

I am glad to hear the sacred texts here are based on the fiction and it just seems to me it should stay that way and that it should get even deeper into that sort of stuff. I see that people here will quote yoda or obi wan and why not? they are the example that the people here strive to be right? they are our jesus. and darth vader is our devil, or the emperor I suppose and darth vader is a demon lmoa! and those guys had supernatural powers like Jesus. none of his followers did though so that is like us. but modern day christians use his power to heal people all the time or ask for miracles and why cant Jedi try and do that same thing? I for one just think thats what needs to be the heart of the doctrine.

May the Force be with you (aka... "bless you") for saying this.

You have spoken the truth. And I don't care what anyone else says. I hope you continue to speak this truth and hopefully one day, become a Jedi master who teaches others based on material that you continue to pull from canon/lore.

It IS the same because the principles behind these characters were ALWAYS REAL and just as real as the principles behind bible characters and archetypes.

People can debate whether or not Jesus existed but WHO CARES! The real question is was there truth in his message and teachings? If the answer is yes and no then WELCOME TO HUMANITY. You pass level 1. Human beings make things up all the time. It's called superstition. But acting like AT NO TIME WERE WE EVER superstitious and zomg it has no value... also not true. Denying it is equal to claiming it existed in the first place. The fact is there is truth on both sides. There were things Jesus was absolutely right about and you don't have to be a Christian to see that and appreciate that. There were things he was absolutely wrong about though and if you're more of a cult member you might not ever be able to admit that. But it's true.

Human beings have a history of trying to put such a heavy burden on our leaders because we want them to carry their load and ours too. Humans look for them to save them. And in the meantime we'll sacrifice each other on the alter of our own greed and arrogance. In the meantime we'll sit back and have fun pretending as long as you don't actually expect us to be Luke, Rey, or Jesus. The mind of the religious person is constantly aflutter with "how much can I NOT do?"

There was a story I heard this morning about a Muslim who was shot in the face by a Caucasian (Which I mention only because it was relevant to the story) who had not been raised under the best of circumstances. The faith of that Muslim made him do the opposite of what human nature would dictate. He forgave the man, and fought on his behalf against the death penalty being carried out. He even reached out to his family to help. Stories like this may not outweigh the stories of savagery that cause people to think their own savagery against Muslims is justified. However, it is a story about how the faith/religion of an individual can cause them to do something great.

So, in my mind, what is a Jedi? A Jedi is the heroic expression of the Force, fighting for Truth, Justice, etc. If you're light saber is sparkling clean because it never gets dirty then what good is it? I may only be an apprentice but I don't play Jedi. I end up being in battles with negative change agents because that's simply what happens when opposite forces collide. Action and reaction. But if you're a force for good that isn't ever colliding with anything opposite, then are you the opposite? You don't have to be any sort of extreme, and I think extremism in any form is a negative force. But where one gets the idea of not getting involved and all that... it's certainly not from the fiction which I think is a disservice to the name but is unfortunately the worst of religious thinking which always seeks the title, but not the "works".

"Faith without works is dead." - The Bible

And yes, part of the understanding of the SW franchise, to me, is how a person can basically become a demon by losing that internal battle with our inner demons. The fiction has a REALLY deep story; deeper in my opinion, than the bible. Yes, I said it. And I'll say it again. Star Wars is deeper than the bible. Happy to debate anyone who disagrees. Star Wars touches everything from spirituality, to psychology, to politics. It connects everything. It shows how someone even on the right side could be corrupt or perverted in their thinking and then go out and be the worst that the other side has to offer. Anakin is basically Satan; a shining star with hopes of being the chosen one/"son" but he is corrupted by his own power/"beauty" and his arrogance and pride basically shape his thinking until he turns against the heavenly host/Jedi. The bible simply demonizes the devil while Star Wars helps you understand the devil to play devil's advocate in an effort to see both sides and weigh the difference in each situation. We may not always get it right but we should stay focused so that we do not get led (by our own ego) down the path to the dark side. The message of Star Wars is so deep to me that trying to ignore it whilst calling one's self Jedi is, imo, criminal.

And no, that doesn't mean I want to dress up in robes. It simply means there is an understanding beyond all the trappings that has far more value than anything you could replace it with.