ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

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11 Nov 2019 10:18 #345388 by JamesSand

I rather like the three tenets; knowledge, focus, wisdom. These definitely come across as jedi-like, but are they tenets?


Semantics of the word "tenet" aside (I imagine "Pillars" could serve)

there is a charm to three....basic things....
Everyone loves the triforce ;) - Power Courage and Wisdom.....but we can't just steal that.

A thought though, in...lets call it "achieving goals", there are three "basic tools" you need. They have stupid names depending on who you ask, but they can more or less be referred to as "Will" "Knowledge" and "Resources"

(Will could just as easily be Courage, Knowledge could be Wisdom, and Resources could be power....)

Now this comes a bit into my previous question - does a Jedi seek to enforce their will on the world? and if that is so - the pillars for a Jedi could easily be Knowledge (the things you know, or that can be known), Will (the desire and focus to achieve what can be achieved) and Resources (the power and expendable material required to do the things that can be done - this can include your own body, as a "resource" to be built and put to task, but just as easily be the good faith of your allies, or your political influence, or monies, etc etc)

I don't put forth my "three things" as being inherently Jedi, but they are the "Three things" required to "achieve goals"

They can also, rather readily, be understood or taught concepts, which might be handy for a church with so many people eager to learn....
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11 Nov 2019 13:12 #345395 by OB1Shinobi
Am i enforcing my will on the world when i vote?
What about if i donate to a politician?
If i join a politicians campaign?
If i convince other people to vote for him/her?
What if i have billions of dollars and i only donate to politicians who will write laws that protect my company?
What if i hack all the voting machine in a given district?

Most stories of the Jedi involve them completing some difficult mission; a Jedi who cant achieve a goal is as useful as anyone else who cant achieve a goal lol. Id say the issue is the ethics of how we do it?

The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down in order to feel it’s warmth.
-supposedly an African proverb.
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11 Nov 2019 13:35 #345396 by Alethea Thompson
I had this whole response typed up XD and lost it....lol. Let’s try again, maybe I can shorten it:

While Diogenes may or may not have lived in a barrel, I think one would argue that his works would be the source and inspiration for anyone responsibly trying to follow his direction. ;). Just like Christ’s works and the writings after him are the source and inspiration of Christianity.

I’m actually a huge proponent of distancing ourselves from the fiction...but not as a scholar. That is:
1) Don’t use it as scripture. It’s written in a fictional world, and can easily be written in favor of any character. The philosophy written within it can be analyzed against the real world and vetted though. And I think that’s worthwhile.
2) Don’t force followers to a fictional dress code (outside of appropriate ceremony or events).
3) Don’t force followers to take up lightsaber training, though if you -want- to be an elitist group I’m fine with forcing membership to take up a Martial Art of their choosing. Personally, I don’t- I just insist that you take care of your health to the measure you can.
4) Don’t take a stance that you have to learn to communicate with ETs so you can help cultivate “peace in the galaxy”. You laugh or “Uhg, now you’re just making things up”, but I’ve met 2 “Jedi” that insisted upon this and for a -while- they had significant pull in their corner of the community.

Distancing ourselves from the fiction doesn’t mean throwing it all out. The 16 Teachings and 21 Maxims came from people that took what they saw in the fiction and put it into something which could be used in the real world. If you study the original content of each document and compare it to the fiction you can find how both fit together with a fair amount of ease. It may be a bit more difficult to see it with the evolved writing from ToTJO knights over the years, but it is still present.

As it concerns the Tenets, the fiction has 3 pillars: Force, Knowledge & Self-Displine. If we are going to change the word from “Tenet”, Knowledge, Focus and Wisdom are each listed as one of the 40 Virtues, maybe “Virtue” would be more appropriate?

lol, Looks like this got typed up longer than the last.
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11 Nov 2019 15:09 #345398 by ZealotX

Rex wrote: Source and inspiration are different. I can be inspired by Diogenes without living in a barrel


Yes, however, let me ask this again.

Are we a club or a religion?

In Christianity people are inspired by the same God that also issues commands and tells them how to live. It would lack all cohesion if they were inspired by God and then don't do ANYTHING God asked them to do. If that's the case then why call it a religion? I'm inspired by the grass and trees. I don't have one inspiration. I have many. Goku inspires me to power up and push beyond limits. That's the point. But there is no "church of Goku" that I'm aware of and even if their was I wouldn't join it because I have no reverence for Goku. Does that make sense?

Inspiration alone does not make a religion, much like the JC saying that "man shall not live by bread alone" but by what? "every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God".

2 Things. 1... I wish we had more quotes of purely Jedi origin. 2... unlike Christianity we don't have "and thus saith the Force, thou shalt ________ and _________". We're more like an Eastern religion in many ways where the "thus saith" is from a wise master.

Thus it would make sense for us (although this is somewhat off topic so please forgive me) to use material from Jedi masters (both real and fictional!) if there are wise sayings that can be quoted.

The idea that "oh you can't use that because that's fictional"... I WHOLLY reject because I spent about 25-30 years of my life believing in and using fictional quotes from the bible. And guess what? I'm okay. If I quote something it's not simply because I'm a robot who must always beep beep bop beep no matter what [system reboot] but rather I quote things I resonate with. And a lot of people still resonate with Christianity and other religions which is why there is definitely a place for that here, but there should also, at least equally, be a place for something that is more reflective of a uniquely Jedi perspective.

To some extent this may not exist. No matter what we say its going to sound at least a little like something else. But to me, its the combination, like a balanced diet with vitamins and minerals... its that balance... that is (for me) Jediism. That, for me, is what makes it not just a club. But that's only if there are doctrines and teachings built on top of that foundation.

One one side you have religions that seek power and domination (Christianity, Islam) and on the other you have religions that seek harmony. I think many of us are trying to choose one or the other, thinking we have to make that choice when the answer is that we don't and by making that choice we actually make the other side STRONGER. But the only way you SEE this, imho, is by understanding the Jedi Path. The problem is that people view this path differently and have different beliefs about it because their teachings don't match their inspiration. It's a critical judgment against the inspiration to say that it cannot provide the teachings. I fundamentally disagree with this as someone who has seen, not just all the movies, but read many of the EU books and played the games. There is a deep well of teachings because we're dealing with art which always exposes the mind of the artist.

The pure Eastern doesn't work because the more Jedi disengage from the world the more problems face society and people react to these problems either by engaging or disengaging. Taoism and Buddhism hasn't helped to create a Utopian society and weren't meant to but look at modern day China and what it needs to borrow from the West in terms of freedom. If you disengage while someone is taking your power, if you do not defend yourself, then you simply perpetuate everything that you see which makes you react by trying to be non-reactive. That in itself is a paradox of irony because this if not all religions wouldn't exist without a human need acting as a catalyst for a reaction.

The pure Western doesn't work because, imo, although it does want things to change and isn't against working for it, it also serves to remove the individual from the hero role and replace them with a prophet, a messiah/Christ, or external personalized deity who knows YOU and loves YOU. The problem with this is that it's always right so even if the world is a hellscape of our own creation, the responsibility is removed onto a third party for creating and for eventually fixing it. And so people disengage with the world and the role of the individual in connecting with others the more we connect to this outside deity which is like a smart phone. How much people are on smart phones today is kinda like how people approach religions.

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11 Nov 2019 15:52 #345402 by Alexandre Orion
We really need no doctrine at all, especially not one written by a f**king committee.

We need some guide posts that help to remind us of our tripartite anthropology, our guiding ethics and some warnings to be aware of the dangers of "fighting evil" (sometimes we ourselves are the "evil").

We need bylaws to be an institution, but must we be a church ? What does that qualification bring us other that behaviour which, in many ways, bears witness to not only a lack of faith, but a faith bankruptcy altogether.

Religious texts are not Religion : re-ligios is deeply existentially transcendental and cannot be written (except in metaphor), only shared. Religions cannot be agreed thoughtfully, one can at best bring understanding and a measure of syncretism to others' hermeneutics. It is this partage that makes for a Religion, never, NEVER strict obedience to Code, Creed, Culte...

May the Force be with us.

"Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme."
~ Henri Bergson
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11 Nov 2019 15:55 #345403 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: Am i enforcing my will on the world when i vote?
What about if i donate to a politician?
If i join a politicians campaign?
If i convince other people to vote for him/her?
What if i have billions of dollars and i only donate to politicians who will write laws that protect my company?
What if i hack all the voting machine in a given district?

Most stories of the Jedi involve them completing some difficult mission; a Jedi who cant achieve a goal is as useful as anyone else who cant achieve a goal lol. Id say the issue is the ethics of how we do it?


I BELIEVE (which is always a statement that could be true or false) that Jedi should be critical of both sides of the equation in order to continuously work to BALANCE that equation.

In other words... (and this is not at all directed at any one person but us in general)

How much should we engage? Enough to make a positive difference and not so much that it creates a bigger problem. The fictional Jedi order went back and forth in this respect and never really got it right because like the Architect in the Matrix, their versions of order were often too rigid which created anomalies like Revan. One could even say that the sith, as a group, are an anomaly of Jedi creation stemming from failed attempts to balance the Force.

As a religion, the Force doesn't tell us what to do. It doesn't tell us to balance it or not to balance it. I, as an expression of the Force, see the need to balance the distribution of power in my own life: not just the power that I have but the power that others attempt to leverage against me. There are environmental forces, political forces, physical forces, emotional forces, etc., each one acting upon the I (Self) in a way that could change that individual in a positive or negative direction. And then each individual, through participation in the equation of life, adds to one side winning or losing, every person effects the results of the equation. We're all connected through this equation. So it should be both an individual (hero's) journey as well as a public service for the greater good because it is the greater good of all (everyone connected). That is Jediism to me and it is absolutely informed by what I've observed comparing the fictional star wars franchise to our very real world.

So the idea that one has to choose.... fiction vs non-fiction, not to be harsh or antagonistic or in any way disrespectful, but to me this idea is "unwise" to an extreme. Stop trying to choose one side or the other when BOTH have validity.

Those who talk about "Grey" I think are really those who sense the fundamental problem with the classical Jedi (Which is the fictional Jedi) normalization of rigid adherence to self righteousness. But none of us can get behind that which is why we play with terms like Jedi realist (imo). Grey Jedi isn't really a thing. They're just Jedi with a view that opposed that of one or more fictional Jedi COUNCILs. The council doesn't necessarily represent all Jedi thought; never has. Not fictional, DEFINITELY not non-fictional. If we don't define Jedi with this understanding in mind then we're going to strain relationships and keep this sort of quiet segregation going on in which we are unintentionally creating useless factions within TOTJO and Jediism in general (although I don't notice this as much outside TOTJO to be fair). But this is why having doctrines is important. Because we need to spell things out in a way that people can agree on what they agree on and know where they fit in. And if they don't fit in, that's okay too. That's a reality that one has to accept.

And once we get on the same page, guess what? There IS work out there to do. Not just individual work, but corporate work. If you don't think the Jedi are needed then you need to pay more attention to the world around you. In much the same way that Democracy was under attack in the prequel trilogy, Democracy itself is under attack today. We have Russian bots acting as a droid army, that may have (in combination with other things) had an effect on our 2016 election. And where were we? Euphemistically polishing our light sabers? Unable to sense the dark side growing stronger? I sensed it. Didn't some of you? We're living in a world were fundamentalists of different religions are working together though apart from each other, to destroy our planet because they think in doing so they'll go to heaven. How is that unlike Anakin killing younglings because, in doing so, he thought he could achieve the power to protect the one he loved? And the reason why the Jedi (When we can, and yes I'm irritated by this, finally figure out what we are!) are needed is because the answer to all this extremism from one side isn't extremism from the other. It is a NEUTRALIZING effect from the middle. Think about what happened with the founders of the US put in place the separation between church and state.... GENIUS move. But don't stop there. Think about the separation between 3 co-equal branches of government! And heck yeah the number 3 should be significant. Left, Right, and CENTER. Balance. Everything we do should be about balance. If we keep flip flopping between 2 sides we wont get anywhere or get anything done. We have two feet where one walks in front of the other because they are 1 (connected) at the hip! The ONE... balances and controls both sides!

When it comes to the specifics the key question to ask yourself is "who am I"? Because guess what? You are The Force manifested in a body. Therefore you should vote your interests and make sure your representatives represent you. It's that simple. But Corporately... "we" as a group and body politic, should fight for our rights, for our common ideals like for Democracy, for Justice, for Human Rights, for Equality, for Peace. All of the ideals that we can capitalize into their own constructs. We should all fight for those things in general, making sure they work for all people, and then individually make sure they work for us. If they don't work for us then they don't work for all people. It's all about balance. And just as power should give and take we should also give and take when it comes to our needs. When women gained more rights, it hurt men because they now had to compete with women in the labor market. When the slaves were freed it hurt a bunch of people who had to compete in the labor market. But just because something disadvantages you doesn't mean its wrong or shouldn't be done. There has to be a balance there that doesn't uphold the personal over the corporate good. And guess what? You might have daughters. You may have a wife who's impacted. You may have black friends who are impacted. We're all connected.

I think the fiction provides a wealth of knowledge that gives us something to go on outside of our real life experience. And yes... this is a good thing because it serves as kind of a check and balance on our reality; a reality that people are constantly trying to escape from and turning to fiction in order to do that. People think it has to be real in order to be legitimate because they're scared how it will be judged. But no, that's the wrong question. What really matters is whether these truths are "self-evident". If that's the case it doesn't matter who the hell said it; whether it was one of the founding fathers of America or whether it was Yoda or the guy who put words in Yoda's mouth. It doesn't matter. And if Christians are being honest, it doesn't matter who wrote the gospels to them. Jesus didn't make the teachings appealing. The teachings made Jesus appealing. People followed Jesus because of his teachings, not the other way around. If we're talking about doctrine, we have to understand this.

And so when the fictional Jedi fought for Justice and Democracy and Freedom, these were the same ideals that exist today. How can we claim these ideals personally if we don't fight for them at the corporate scale? I personally think its a little embarrassing when children are out there speaking up and challenging adults to act on climate change, on gun violence, etc. and Jedi are... what are we doing? Still trying to figure out what we believe or whether or not the fiction we're obviously inspired by has any value beyond a name and the Jedi code? This is not rocket science. No, I don't want to play Jedi dress up any more than most Christians dress like Jesus. I think that'd be ridiculous. HOWEVER, if you don't stand for what Jesus stood for, and you're a Christian, then what's the point of calling yourself that because Christian means follower of Christ. I'm here to follow the Jedi Path. But to me that doesn't mean just polishing a light saber and occasionally arguing about whether reiki is a Force power. I want to apply Jediism to real life which means health, politics, etc. And if someone doesn't want to do that then maybe a "club" is what they're looking for. But we have to decide whether we're a club or religion.
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11 Nov 2019 16:12 - 11 Nov 2019 16:13 #345404 by Fyxe
It just seems to me that there is no way you can be a Jedi if you do not study the ways and ideas of.... yes... THE JEDI! The source of these ideas and ways is the movies and yes that is the source and the inspiration of all of this. I dont know why are people denying this now? Its like peter denying christ! lol and nobody even knows if Jesus was real and we dont even know if buddha or any of those guys were real. so if they have no problem telling people that why should Jedi?

I am glad to hear the sacred texts here are based on the fiction and it just seems to me it shojuld stay that way and that it should get even deeper into that sort of stuff. I see that people here will quote yoda or obi wan and why not? they are the example that the people here strive to be right? they are our jesus. and darth vader is our devil, or the emperor I suppose and darth vader is a demon lmoa! and those guys had supernatural powers like Jesus. none of his followers did though so that is like us. but modern day christians use his power to heal people all the time or ask for miracles and why cant Jedi try and do that same thing? I for one just think thats what needs to be the heart of the doctrine.

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
Last edit: 11 Nov 2019 16:13 by Fyxe.
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11 Nov 2019 16:23 #345405 by ZealotX

Alexandre Orion wrote:

We really need no doctrine at all, especially not one written by a f**king committee.


Sorry, but with all due respect, this feels like one extreme (like a sort of anarchy) demonizing collective organization which is odd coming from one in a position that I assume was recognized by a committee. I hope I misunderstood what you were intending to say.

We need some guide posts that help to remind us of our tripartite anthropology, our guiding ethics and some warnings to be aware of the dangers of "fighting evil" (sometimes we ourselves are the "evil").


"what about the dangers of NOT fighting evil?" Of course, if we had a simple set of Doctrines that speak to commonly held ideals that represent Jedi we ould EXTEND that into teachings from different masters. One master could talk about the dangers of fighting evil and another could talk about the dangers of not. But I see no value in not being organized. It's just a matter of how you do it.

We need bylaws to be an institution, but must we be a church ? What does that qualification bring us other that behaviour which, in many ways, bears witness to not only a lack of faith, but a faith bankruptcy altogether.


Again, like I said, a lot of people may not feel the whole religion/church type of rhetoric and this mainly comes from a sharp criticism of other religions who se simultaneously disdain and copy/mimic. But it isn't about demonizing certain words. It's about reclaiming their original identities and using them in a manner in which we ourselves define. If we allow the words we use to be "owned" by other religions then we'll be in the shadow of those religions. Other religions don't do that. Christianity doesn't care what Islam thinks a prophet is or vice versa. They each have their own ideas. Same with the word God and Allah. These have the same meaning but are simply two different languages. So its all about what the religion means when it uses it. It's religion that makes it "God" instead of "god". So staying away from these words simply allows these other religions more legitimacy.

Religious texts are not Religion : re-ligios is deeply existentially transcendental and cannot be written (except in metaphor), only shared. Religions cannot be agreed thoughtfully, one can at best bring understanding and a measure of syncretism to others' hermeneutics. It is this partage that makes for a Religion, never, NEVER strict obedience to Code, Creed, Culte...


McDonald's menu is not fast food. But try ordering fast food without a menu. When you have shared text then you have a medium through which all of your unique ideas can be communicated. If I go to Burger King and try to order using the McDonald's menu, the employees would laugh and think I was stupid. And if, what I really want is McDonald's, then why the hell am I at Burger King? A doctrine basically the menu that defines what a person from the outside is going to find when they come here. If we cannot communicate that in a simple and non-confusing way then we're doing a disservice to the company. If people need pictures on the menu then give them pictures because its all to help people understand what they're communicating. If I have to explain the difference between a Big Mac and Whopper to restaurant when I could just say the single word name of the sandwich... then everyone's going to be frustrated and I MIGHT be at the wrong place. So yes we need a menu not some vague sandbox that is part of the problem of most religions.

A lot of the doctrines we have could even be broken down to single words like the whopper.

Justice, Loyalty, Truth, Wisdom, Knowledge, Peace, etc. But that's kind of where the Code (which is part of the doctrine which obviously comes from the fictional Jedi) comes in. Where as we then add extra words to add more "clay" to shape it into something with more dimension and definition. And then at this point the "masters" whoever we consider them to be, should have the task of defining it further through repetitive teachings to reinforce them.

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11 Nov 2019 16:58 #345406 by Alexandre Orion
Sorry for speaking out. Evidently, everyone else knows better, so I'll just go back in the library and read.

Yes, I was recognised as a master once by the Council. I'm not sure that is still the case. Mastery is the realisation of how much one has not mastered ... and probably cannot.

"Chaque homme a des devoirs envers l'homme en tant qu'homme."
~ Henri Bergson
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11 Nov 2019 17:02 #345407 by ZealotX

Fyxe wrote: It just seems to me that there is no way you can be a Jedi if you do not study the ways and ideas of.... yes... THE JEDI! The source of these ideas and ways is the movies and yes that is the source and the inspiration of all of this. I dont know why are people denying this now? Its like peter denying christ! lol and nobody even knows if Jesus was real and we dont even know if buddha or any of those guys were real. so if they have no problem telling people that why should Jedi?

I am glad to hear the sacred texts here are based on the fiction and it just seems to me it should stay that way and that it should get even deeper into that sort of stuff. I see that people here will quote yoda or obi wan and why not? they are the example that the people here strive to be right? they are our jesus. and darth vader is our devil, or the emperor I suppose and darth vader is a demon lmoa! and those guys had supernatural powers like Jesus. none of his followers did though so that is like us. but modern day christians use his power to heal people all the time or ask for miracles and why cant Jedi try and do that same thing? I for one just think thats what needs to be the heart of the doctrine.


May the Force be with you (aka... "bless you") for saying this.

You have spoken the truth. And I don't care what anyone else says. I hope you continue to speak this truth and hopefully one day, become a Jedi master who teaches others based on material that you continue to pull from canon/lore.

It IS the same because the principles behind these characters were ALWAYS REAL and just as real as the principles behind bible characters and archetypes.

People can debate whether or not Jesus existed but WHO CARES! The real question is was there truth in his message and teachings? If the answer is yes and no then WELCOME TO HUMANITY. You pass level 1. Human beings make things up all the time. It's called superstition. But acting like AT NO TIME WERE WE EVER superstitious and zomg it has no value... also not true. Denying it is equal to claiming it existed in the first place. The fact is there is truth on both sides. There were things Jesus was absolutely right about and you don't have to be a Christian to see that and appreciate that. There were things he was absolutely wrong about though and if you're more of a cult member you might not ever be able to admit that. But it's true.

Human beings have a history of trying to put such a heavy burden on our leaders because we want them to carry their load and ours too. Humans look for them to save them. And in the meantime we'll sacrifice each other on the alter of our own greed and arrogance. In the meantime we'll sit back and have fun pretending as long as you don't actually expect us to be Luke, Rey, or Jesus. The mind of the religious person is constantly aflutter with "how much can I NOT do?"

There was a story I heard this morning about a Muslim who was shot in the face by a Caucasian (Which I mention only because it was relevant to the story) who had not been raised under the best of circumstances. The faith of that Muslim made him do the opposite of what human nature would dictate. He forgave the man, and fought on his behalf against the death penalty being carried out. He even reached out to his family to help. Stories like this may not outweigh the stories of savagery that cause people to think their own savagery against Muslims is justified. However, it is a story about how the faith/religion of an individual can cause them to do something great.

So, in my mind, what is a Jedi? A Jedi is the heroic expression of the Force, fighting for Truth, Justice, etc. If you're light saber is sparkling clean because it never gets dirty then what good is it? I may only be an apprentice but I don't play Jedi. I end up being in battles with negative change agents because that's simply what happens when opposite forces collide. Action and reaction. But if you're a force for good that isn't ever colliding with anything opposite, then are you the opposite? You don't have to be any sort of extreme, and I think extremism in any form is a negative force. But where one gets the idea of not getting involved and all that... it's certainly not from the fiction which I think is a disservice to the name but is unfortunately the worst of religious thinking which always seeks the title, but not the "works".

"Faith without works is dead." - The Bible

And yes, part of the understanding of the SW franchise, to me, is how a person can basically become a demon by losing that internal battle with our inner demons. The fiction has a REALLY deep story; deeper in my opinion, than the bible. Yes, I said it. And I'll say it again. Star Wars is deeper than the bible. Happy to debate anyone who disagrees. Star Wars touches everything from spirituality, to psychology, to politics. It connects everything. It shows how someone even on the right side could be corrupt or perverted in their thinking and then go out and be the worst that the other side has to offer. Anakin is basically Satan; a shining star with hopes of being the chosen one/"son" but he is corrupted by his own power/"beauty" and his arrogance and pride basically shape his thinking until he turns against the heavenly host/Jedi. The bible simply demonizes the devil while Star Wars helps you understand the devil to play devil's advocate in an effort to see both sides and weigh the difference in each situation. We may not always get it right but we should stay focused so that we do not get led (by our own ego) down the path to the dark side. The message of Star Wars is so deep to me that trying to ignore it whilst calling one's self Jedi is, imo, criminal.

And no, that doesn't mean I want to dress up in robes. It simply means there is an understanding beyond all the trappings that has far more value than anything you could replace it with.
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