ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

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25 Oct 2019 19:44 #344843 by Rex
Absolutely. There's no mention of most of those terms in the doctrine, I was just borrowing your definition in order to clarify something about TotJO. We are a lot of things here, and welcome force realists, but are not force realists organizationally. My comment on larping is based on how in order to purposely delineate one's self from the larger jediism community, in my experience I've seen force realism come across as a sort of single-minded dedication to star wars which in a non-pejorative sense is very reminiscent of larping (and also a common misconception that all Jediism is essentially a star wars fan club). If you want to help me remedy my ignorance of your system, my mailbox is open to you.

Thank you for your work in defining those Alethea, it takes a lot of effort in order to make a distinction like that come into parlance.

I'm right with you there on the Gaia hypothesis.

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ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
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25 Oct 2019 20:49 - 25 Oct 2019 20:50 #344845 by Alethea Thompson
My apologies if I came off too heavy-handed. I have many friends who follow the Sith, Shadow and (a more recent developed philosophy) Dark Jedi (which came about out of the Krath philosophies) and I'm not fond of seeing them being disrespected. Admittedly, I'd have to say that the majority of fan club people I have encountered come from the group which wants to identify as "Grey/Gray Jedi" or in general on Facebook we attract a lot that just like the idea of being called Jedi.

Facebook, as FB does, has created a number of it's own problems as we move forward. Some of the software creator's better ideas came nearly a decade too late for them to be useful (such as the "Units" system within FB Groups).

Returning to the original discussion though ^^

Going back to "divine" vs. "metaphysical", after having gone through and considering the wider definitions of both words- I wonder if "sacred" would actually be more appropriate?

We use "ubiquitous" which describes that it is everywhere in the definition as it is. Sacred, having a secondary definition of "entitled to reverence and respect" leaves the question of "why is it sacred" more open, rather than the way that "divine" is defined as being from or of God/a god.
Last edit: 25 Oct 2019 20:50 by Alethea Thompson.
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27 Oct 2019 01:54 #344874 by deb1977
Weed out? That is worrying. I thought the purpose was for selecting apprentices. Teacher / student relationship must be a good fit for both. So if my thoughts / ramblings/ postings are not "a good fit" will I be weeded out? I hope not. Thank you for your post.

little tiger Deb
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27 Oct 2019 04:42 - 27 Oct 2019 04:44 #344877 by Rex
No one as far as I know has been talking about weeding people out. If anything, people weed themselves out here unless they're a blatant troll
Edit: having the wrong opinion doesn't get you banned, breaking the ToS will eventually

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ὁ δὲ ἀμυχηδόν νεξέταστος βίος γίγνομαι βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ
Last edit: 27 Oct 2019 04:44 by Rex.
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27 Oct 2019 09:27 #344882 by ren

Alethea Thompson wrote: Changing the definition back to the original "Jediism is a religion based on the observance of the Force" from "religious school of thought" would definitely make it less of a mouthful. I don't see a problem with changing that, or even just keeping the original write up. As you'll recall, I was not the one to propose an edit on that, I only proposed a renaming of the Creed to "Jedi Affirmations", an introduction to the Jedi Code, and streamlining the two documents into one so we could compare the three and choose one.

As for the edit suggested by Zealot to axe metaphysical and replace it with "Divine". I actually think that pulls it more outside the realm of Jedi Realism and across the line into Jediism. It also goes to the heart of the discussion that was had in the "Is Reiki a Force Power?" thread a couple of weeks ago.

When that discussion occurred, we saw a lot of people get upset that anyone would equate alternative healing methods like that to using the Force (I also note that some in the "against" camp noted they could see it being used for calming someone down, but not for legit healing). It would seem that the ToTJO environment is more against Metaphysical studies (of which Reiki, Telepathy, and the like fall into) than they would the idea that something is divine.

Divine also has a lot more connotations than simply a "deity". In many new-age cultures, Humans have their own internal divinity.

:)



I think I better quote wikipedia,

Metaphysics is a major branch of philosophy. It concerns existence and the nature of things that exist. Altogether it is a theory of reality.

Ontology is the part of metaphysics which discusses what exists: the categories of being. Apart from ontology, metaphysics concerns the nature of, and relations among, the things that exist.


When we say the force is metaphysical, what we mean is it cannot be objectively studied. We are in it and cannot observe it from the outside because there is no 'outside the force'. There is plenty of evidence the force exists in the physical world, and that aspect can be studied too, because everything that exists is a manifestation of the Force... However when it comes to the Force as a whole we fall outside the study of physics and fall into philosophy.

Being metaphysical does not imply we accept other metaphysical theories as true or integrate them as part of our own.

In Jediism we have the Force, the reiki guys have their own thing, the wicca guys have theirs, etc, and we are quite happy for things to remain that way.



'Ren may have historically used the term to talk down to people, but I was unaware of his use of the term until long after I began FRM. '

Ren hasn't talked about realists since the way old JRC forum and maybe TJW, except here with you briefly, so I think Rex's observations are his own and have little to do with me.

I'm not quite sure why you insist on streamlining and removing the 2 'documents'. I see the doctrine as one incomplete document which could do with additional headache-inducing text, not less.

Regarding 'divine', no matter who suggested it first or why, the issue we'll find is that it is of god, by god, or God-like in some way and we're going to find ourselves trapped in the pantheist panentheist or other theist definitions, which we have been staying away from.

The closest non-jedi religious concept to the Force as described by the current doctrine is Brahman (interestingly also at the source of other better known religions).

Wiki describes it as 'In Hinduism, Brahman connotes the highest Universal Principle, the Ultimate Reality in the universe. In major schools of Hindu philosophy, it is the material, efficient, formal and final cause of all that exists. It is the pervasive, genderless, infinite, eternal truth and bliss which does not change, yet is the cause of all changes. Brahman as a metaphysical concept is the single binding unity behind diversity in all that exists in the universe.'

Doesnt change yet causes changes= what we usually refer to as energy when describing the Force, everything else we could copy/paste and exchange brahman with 'the Force', and 'hindu' with 'jedi'.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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27 Oct 2019 14:37 #344884 by Carlos.Martinez3
So, real talk - is this proposal still being worked on or is it still in rough draft? I haven’t seen anything come by the council as far as something to read.
When it is sent , we will discuss and vote. That’s the procedure.

How can we as a organization with many different clergy and Knights change a doctrine that not every one has has time and effort to weigh in on?
How can we change things like this - this big- with only a few who want the change or even know of the change? Doesn’t seem fair to me.

Hint hint : if it came from the Knights as a collective whole - voted asked discussed and such - maybe it would hold a bit more weight rather than from just a select few. Real talk -Seems likes it’s been done in the dark - I know it hasn’t but it seems shady. Use your resources and procedure. It can be said Br John really loves the Knights here - there’s no doubt. That’s why we are still standing.[one of the reasons ] There is nothing we CANT do here. Maybe a bit more of inclusion and time, rather than being just a quick makeshift draft and it be ever changing never done....maybe we can result in a different outcome?

Solutions
Any other solutions to what we see here? Real ones?

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27 Oct 2019 18:51 #344892 by Alethea Thompson
I would say we’re still looking at it. Afterall, there is now a dispute on whether or not the word “divine” should be included or switched.

Regardless of what Wiki says, Ren, it doesn’t make common usage and understanding of the term any less difficult to fit into the views of the community.

metaphysicsuniversity.com/

^ They teach all kinds of things...like Reiki, Astral Projection, Aura Viewing and many more that people would place in the category of Psuedoscience. The word “metaphysical” has too many things attached to it which are disputed by the membership here.

Divine, too- in the sense that not everyone here attributes the Force to having anything to do with God. Even if Lucas’ purpose for putting it into the films was to get young people to question whether or not they believe God exists.

Sacred at least is more about how you treat it’s importance.
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27 Oct 2019 19:26 - 27 Oct 2019 19:28 #344894 by OB1Shinobi
It seems to me that whatever wording is decided on we can resolve the interpretative ambiguity by simply including the precise definition we have in mind for the word. Divine, metaphysical, sacred, holy, mystical, esoteric, whatever.

“We believe in blah blah blah (by which we mean: our preferred definition of “blah blah blah” here)”

“As long as you feel that you are the most important thing in the world you cannot really appreciate the world around you. You are like a horse with blinders, all you see is yourself apart from everything else.”
-Don Juan Matus
Last edit: 27 Oct 2019 19:28 by OB1Shinobi.
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27 Oct 2019 19:36 #344896 by deb1977
Rex, thank you.

I quote "You can say that the IP does, because we have it as an assignment. But by and large the IP was never designed to focus people on what the Jedi Path was, but rather for knights and masters to get to know who their potential students are, to weed out those that don't want to put in any work (and I'm not saying that as an observation, that's literally the answer I've received from council members that were present earlier this decade)."

I underlined the weeding out wording.

little tiger Deb
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28 Oct 2019 02:59 #344905 by Alethea Thompson
Emphasis should be put more on the “those that don’t want to put in any work”.

If you cannot complete the IP, then it’s not a hard leap to believe that placing the student in an apprenticeship wouldn’t be fruitful for either the Training s Master or the Apprentice. I’m actually not opposed to that mindset, it makes sense. I am opposed to the IP not having a bigger emphasis on what it really means to be a Jedi of our Order.
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