ATTN: COUNCIL; Updated Doctrine Proposal

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11 Nov 2019 17:22 #345408 by ZealotX

Alexandre Orion wrote: Sorry for speaking out. Evidently, everyone else knows better, so I'll just go back in the library and read.

Yes, I was recognised as a master once by the Council. I'm not sure that is still the case. Mastery is the realisation of how much one has not mastered ... and probably cannot.


Don't apologize! If you still believe you have a point worth defending, then defend it.

If you felt like I took a swipe at you, I'm sorry. I'm more about the ideology. When I said, "with all due respect" I meant it, even if that statement is overused in society.

Part of what I'm fighting against is this unspoken air here that we can't disagree and can't voice an opinion on the off chance someone will disagree with it. And since everyone can be Jedi, and no one is ever really wrong because our doctrine is purposefully made vague for maximum acceptance... then there's almost no point saying anything or sharing anything because everyone is their own teacher and nothing matters. That's not a religion.

There are many ways to be a Christian. Christianity is not some monolith. There are fundamentalist Christians who wish they could define Christianity for everyone else. There are sects that you never hear from but who organize around helping people in need. There are people who rabidly believe everything the church says because the church says it. And there are people who take everything as metaphor, some even the existence of God. But they can all be called Christians by virtue of following Christ.

And the fact that, and I could be wrong, but it seems so many people change in this journey, means that either there isn't enough structure and guidance helping people to stay on their path without being taken over by pessimism, fear, stagnation, ego, malice, greed, depression, guilt, and a whole host of other things (and I'm not talking about any one person in particular), and there needs to be some acceptance of the fact that the sun doesn't shine every day and its not always 78 degrees outside, and maybe being a Jedi is hard sometimes. Or simply give up and say here's a Jedi Path and here's also one for the Sith and here's one for the Sith who might want to come back to the Jedi Path. I don't have all the answers, but we definitely need to think about these things. How much do we measure up, in our "faith" to the fictional Jedi of the movies? Or have too many of us slid somewhat down the path of Anakin already to the point where it makes such decisions difficult?
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11 Nov 2019 17:43 #345409 by Fyxe
Thank you Zealot!

I agree with what you say! and I have never seen a master here before today. please forgive me, but why are they absent? please, no reason to have hurt feelings over so simple a comment, masters. I think masters should be stronger than this! and if we need to make the documents here as a religion stronger we should do that, add to the sacred texts and define clearly the mythologies jedi embrace and even have the mystical powers of the force and the great leaders we try to be like as part of the mytholgoy doctrine. Maybe we have like stories about their teachings like jesus in the bible has that we create?

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.

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11 Nov 2019 19:38 - 11 Nov 2019 19:39 #345410 by Rosalyn J

Alexandre Orion wrote:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


To briefly speak on this matter. I believe that it is human nature to set up standards for how life ought to be goverened within a specific group. We, being social creatures are predisposed to such behavior seeing as we have to interact with one another. Whatever we call that collective of rules, whether it be doctrine or commandments or codes of ethics, it ought to be a relational thing. In other words, the words of the doctrine ought to come second to the creation and restoration of relationship. With the Force, with one another and with the world around us. In my nearly 34 years of living I have learned that you cannot legislate behavior or morality. The Law exists where no relationship can. How for example, is California supposed to ensure that its citizens dwell in peace except by creating laws that (hopefully) ensure that. But laws are broken all the time and justice sometimes is not blind, but sometimes light and sometimes heavy depending on who applies it and to whom.

That being said, we aren't so numerous that we cannot know one another. In fact, in the last few years our attendance has taken a considerable dip. In my time in leadership I thought I might legislate our way toward relationship and I was wrong.

Maitre is right. Saying we don't "need" a doctrine isn't the same as saying its not useful. However, what we need is experience. With the Force and with one another. We need relationship with the Force and one another, not just in TOTJO, but in the world. Our desire to create more laws as a society (I believe) is directly related to instagram and facebook friendships, snap chats and selfies and very few human bonds. We are more connected and paradoxally less connected then our parents and grandparents.

Now, the danger of the law or the doctrine is that it can be just as much a snare to experience as a stepping stone. The Israelites became so wrapped up in the law that they neglected to look after the humanity of those they were responsible for. See "the woman at the well", see "the lady caught in adultry. see "Jesus Disciples pick grain on the sabbath" see "Jesus heals on the sabbath" see "a man is healed on the sabbath and admonished for picking up his bed". Jesus gave us two commandments and yet we have thousands of denominations and a general lack of unity among the church. I would just say be careful because this can sometimes be the consequence of standards without relationship and revelation.

To speak to the fiction concerning this matter, remember when Anakin went to Yoda in regards to the nightmares he was having about his mother? Yoda's advice was "train yourself to let go of all you fear to lose". In other words, be weary of attachments and/ or "there is no emotion, there is peace". See what happens sometimes is we can get so wrapped up in platitudes that we don't recognize the struggle internally going on. I would just caution again against setting the doctrine as a measuring stick without an equal part experience, and grace and humility
Last edit: 11 Nov 2019 19:39 by Rosalyn J.
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11 Nov 2019 19:48 #345411 by ZealotX

Fyxe wrote: Thank you Zealot!

I agree with what you say! and I have never seen a master here before today. please forgive me, but why are they absent? please, no reason to have hurt feelings over so simple a comment, masters. I think masters should be stronger than this! and if we need to make the documents here as a religion stronger we should do that, add to the sacred texts and define clearly the mythologies jedi embrace and even have the mystical powers of the force and the great leaders we try to be like as part of the mytholgoy doctrine. Maybe we have like stories about their teachings like jesus in the bible has that we create?


I wouldn't focus on people and what they may or may not being doing. However, I do take your point and sentiment. I think there is definitely a void when it comes to masters which is why it can take a long time to get to that level because the fewer masters there are, the fewer apprentices can actually become knights and so on. But if there isn't continuing growth for knights > masters > beyond then a person may reach that same feeling you get when you beat a video game that doesn't have end game content. It's like, okay, I'm done. Now what? And if a knight doesn't feel like they're a good teacher then its like having a negative birth rate. Eventually, people coming in will have no where to go and not enough people will be able to be promoted. So you definitely have to have patience.
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11 Nov 2019 19:56 #345413 by JamesSand
Alexandre is a wise old master who knows there are only questions.

Not everyone arrives as a wise old master, there are plenty of brash young would-be heroes who need answers to understand there are only questions.....

Short of being a sign with an arrow pointing left and the words "Go right" written on it, in order to be of any benefit to anyone, TotJO probably needs to have "some" answers - defined by committee or divine edict or otherwise, to be the groundwork for a Jeddiism based faith.
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11 Nov 2019 20:17 #345414 by ZealotX

Rosalyn J wrote: Maitre is right. Saying we don't "need" a doctrine isn't the same as saying its not useful. However, what we need is experience. With the Force and with one another. We need relationship with the Force and one another, not just in TOTJO, but in the world. Our desire to create more laws as a society (I believe) is directly related to instagram and facebook friendships, snap chats and selfies and very few human bonds. We are more connected and paradoxally less connected then our parents and grandparents.


I don't really want to put doctrine in the same boat as law. And that's the only reason I disagree with you, I think. For me, doctrine is what you believe. It's not necessarily what you're commanded to do. Commandments in Christianity, for example, are mainly held to believers. While John the Baptist could chastise Herod Antipas that didn't really work out too well. Even if Herod felt morally convicted about his marital situation telling someone God hates x,y,z doesn't really mean much if that person doesn't believe in God. So I just think the belief should come first.

Anakin was definitely starting to disagree with the Jedi on doctrine (precepts and principle). And by the time they realized and understood this it was too late because that agreement on doctrine is what gave Anakin access to the Jedi temple. A Sith lord couldn't just walk in and murder younglings. The person who is able to do that is someone who flies under the radar of what the Jedi were trained to fight against. So at the very least, I would say that our doctrines should separate those who have access to the "temple" from those who ... idk.... might murder younglings (or the intellectual equivalent)?

One might say "hey but that was a fictional story. We don't have anyone like that." And I would say "exactly. The Jedi in the movies could have said the same exact thing."

What you said about the Jews going overboard with the law is true but part of that wasn't even the law but the traditions of the elders of the tribe of Judah that they were mixing in. Yeshua simplified and summarized the commandments, condensing them down to loving God and loving their fellow man. But... it never took away "one jot or tittle" from the law, as he said, "til heaven and earth are passed away". But this is important because it is easy to say "love each other" but that takes for granted that everyone agrees on what that actually means in practice. And before they had any law Moses was constantly overworked trying to decide who was right and wrong in individual situations. So it was very practical; even for those who had relationships because it is easy for two sides of an argument to both think they're right.

So we can condense everything down to the Jedi code but then how does everyone interpret it? That part may be highly subjective. For me, doctrines are more for outsiders looking in, so it needs to something that the non Jedi lay man can comprehend without being confused and thinking we're confused as a result. I'm not even talking about "thou shalt nots" at this point because I believe that always comes later, once a person is convinced of the belief part of it. But whether or not someone even IS a Jedi... that should be based on a clear understanding and application of Jedi Code which is expanded in the doctrine.

Beyond this you're always going to have people at different parts of the journey and so the same way that Paul said that the law is a schoolmaster, laws are necessary for people until they mature beyond that need. You, Ros, are no doubt beyond that point and should every master be. But the religion still has to accommodate those lower and even children. Of course, few children could actually follow the current IP and the level of academic thought it currently appeals to. But again... this is why I think organization and doctrine are important so that you can build around a solid and shared foundation. If this is something kids couldn't understand then we need to re-evaluate. Complexity and vagueness shouldn't be the goal. Understanding and enlightenment should be.

Always a pleasure, master Ros.
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11 Nov 2019 20:48 #345416 by ZealotX

JamesSand wrote: Alexandre is a wise old master who knows there are only questions.

Not everyone arrives as a wise old master, there are plenty of brash young would-be heroes who need answers to understand there are only questions.....

Short of being a sign with an arrow pointing left and the words "Go right" written on it, in order to be of any benefit to anyone, TotJO probably needs to have "some" answers - defined by committee or divine edict or otherwise, to be the groundwork for a Jeddiism based faith.


I agree with the part about needing some answers. This also reminds me of Yeshua/Jesus in the NT.

Matthew 13
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

At the end of the day, 2+2=4. There are people who want 2+2 to equal 5. If we don't spell out 2+2=4 then some will think 4 and others 5, others 3, others 6. If it's a cold day and I ask you if its cold... you might ask "is it cold? Who decides if its cold or how cold is cold or at what degree cold becomes warm and warm becomes hot?" But if I ask you "are YOU cold"... the answer is either yes or no. I understand the whole maieutics thing. Socrates. But if you do that in the drive-through at Burger King you might end up with a whopper with a side of something else. So I would say it really just depends on the question.

Jediism has plenty of questions that lead to more questions. But doctrines aren't the place for that level of discussion. It's really just as simple as trying to explain to someone why you're a Jedi. And it helps to be clear and concise so that people understand you. Otherwise, they might not even think you qualify as a religion ;)

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11 Nov 2019 20:56 #345417 by Fyxe
I think doctrine or sacred texts are for both those looking in to see what the group is about but also for those on the inside to find deeper meaning and special ideas to enhance life. Jews spends a lifetime studying the bible old part and still they never seem to get the deepest parts understood as it is setup to be a path back to God. Jedi have the most basic level of Star Wars as the starting point to all wisdom and knoweldge for a Jedi. That should be the base then right? we are not budhists or christian or muslems or even hundus.. so why should we ignore our very sacred texts that started our paths?

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.

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11 Nov 2019 21:00 #345418 by Skryym

Fyxe wrote: I have never seen a master here before today. please forgive me, but why are they absent?


Fyxe, I think it is safe to say that more senior members are here than you might think. The presence of masters (and many knights) isn't determined by how often they contribute in conversations. I believe they spend a great deal more time reading than posting. I don't know about you, but I find that admirable. That being said, the temple has felt a bit empty since I returned - but attendance ebbs and flows.


Is this still a debate to decide whether or not to change the doctrine? It feels like the argument has traveled to "Is Jediism a religion, what source should inspire it, and does it even require a doctrine?" I'm not passing judgement, these are just as important questions, and they should probably be asked before updating the doctrine.

I only have two opinions (and they are nothing more than opinions):

(1) Spirituality is too unique and complex for a unanimous agreement towards a "Jedi religion". If someone can devise a creed or doctrine that can unite atheists, orientalists, pagans, and those of the Abrahamic faiths under one religion, I would kiss their feet. However, I think it IS very possible to unite people under one philosophy. In other words, we can agree more on the actions that define Jedi, as opposed to belief.
(2) To that extent, the existing doctrine and the proposed one already accomplish this. Alethea did a good job making the doctrine more concise. I agree that a new doctrine is better, but I am in favor of whatever decision preserves the stability and integrity of the temple as a whole.

There is no bad weather, only bad attitudes and bad attire. - Gandalf the Grey

Skryym's Novice Journal | Meditation Journal

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11 Nov 2019 21:02 #345419 by Rosalyn J
Zealot

First, hello. Good to see you. Second, let's examine some of your points.


“I don't really want to put doctrine in the same boat as law. And that's the only reason I disagree with you,” If that is the case then the doctrine should be much shorter should it not?

The Creed would need to be removed because look at the verbiage.
“Where there is...I shall bring” and “I shall never”. Those are directives. What happens when I don’t bring love where there is hatred, am I a Jedi? What about if I am more worried about being understood than being understanding? And who will hold me accountable? By what right? Would it be that because on this particular day, in this particular instance they are able to be understanding and loving? And what about all the other times where they royally fuck that shit up? (I’ve been there).

The Principles of Jediism would also have to be removed. The verbage reads
A jedi (insert action) or does not (insert action) and my question is how is this not a law?

“For me, doctrines are more for outsiders looking in, so it needs to something that the non Jedi lay man can comprehend without being confused and thinking we're confused as a result. “
This line doesn’t make any sense. Outsiders don’t really care about doctrine and as you said in your explenation of John the Baptist and Herod you cannot hold someone to your own standards if they do not believe in what you believe in.

“But this is important because it is easy to say "love each other" but that takes for granted that everyone agrees on what that actually means in practice.”

Right, which is why there is the golden rule “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” Not as you have had, and not as you interpret it as.

“So at the very least, I would say that our doctrines should separate those who have access to the "temple" from those who ... idk.... might murder younglings (or the intellectual equivalent)?”

You won’t reduce the number of radar flyers by doctrine. You will by relationship. By example. The doctrine is important, but it must be second to relationship.

To put it more succinctly, I can only hold YOU accountable if the relationship is two ways. I hold you accountable and you hold me accountable. But that relationship is...and has to be based on trust. If I don’t know you I don’t know you...ya know? I gotta know you before I ever wave the doctrine in front of your face. Because as you said, some people are on different parts of the journey. Every part of the journey has its measure of grace for the steps.

A great assumption is made as it concerns rank. That those with certain ranks “ought to be” here or there. Well maybe they are not. Irrespective of where they ought to be (in our minds), the fact is, they are human as we all are.

And I’ll tell you, I lived on a high horse as I moved up the ranks here. When I became a leader, my horse got stilts. The one thing that I remember is communicating with leaders and seeing their struggles and having them open up to me. One thing I feel like I lost was the ability to have open relationships with those who I was in community with.

Regardless of rank, we are one community. I just don’t want doctrine to get in the way. It doesn’t mean its not important. But it is priority 2

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