Critiquing the boarder wall for ( Br John . )

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26 Jan 2020 16:31 #348862 by Br. John
This is a debate about if building a wall along the entire border of Mexico and The United States is the best way to keep someone from illegally crossing the border and is it worth the cost and damage to the environment and ecology. We are not debating immigration policy. An illegal immigrant is anyone who is in a country illegally. Period. Someone who is granted asylum is here legally so they are not an illegal immigrant. We are not debating asylum policy. We are debating if Trump's Big Beautiful Wall is a good or bad idea. Please. Make topics for all the other related issues.

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26 Jan 2020 21:31 - 26 Jan 2020 21:37 #348869 by Adder
Coming in through an airport legally (and subsequently overstaying) is not as much a risk, because at least the Gov knows who you are and some basic information enough to have let the person in. It's a different problem. The question seems to be more about is the wall worth it, and will it work at undetected border crossings. Sailing a boat is easier to detect, but I think the idea of a wall is to make it harder enough that detection can more easily occur... rather then build it and hope it solves everything. Detection is not so much about stopping, but interception.... things like this are about information first, then application of law second. Its not some Orwellian ham fist. Though it could become that... if irrational minds create ideological division out of every little attempt at solving complex problems, or if people trust too much in propoganda. Lucky our society is increasing access to communications and IT.. so it's more a risk of irrational emotionalism misrepresenting reality then secret government conspiracies these days IMO.

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Last edit: 26 Jan 2020 21:37 by Adder.
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26 Jan 2020 22:08 #348870 by OB1Shinobi
I wonder if there might be certain segments of territory where a wall could be useful


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27 Jan 2020 04:20 #348886 by CaesarEJW
It blows my mind that people care so much about illegal immigration when the existential threat of climate change is looming over our heads.

We are in for a shit storm if we don't start attempting to mitigate the ruin this could bring upon us.
We have like 20 more years before we are screwed if it isn't too late already.
Seriously.

Here is a small example of what could result from our apathy.
A couple of degrees warmer and a majority of grain crops will not be able to grow.
I'm talking roughly 60% of all grain crops.
All it takes is a tiny bit of global temperature variation, just a few degrees shifted one way or another.
Think about the implications of that!
The majority of the population of the world relies on grain crops as a dietary staple.
So, go figure.

Not to mention the wall ain't gonna stop anything, it is just a partial wall, only going over stretches of territory with no natural barrier, people will still find ways in if they are desperate enough.
Yes, Illegal Immigration is an issue, but this isn't the Qin Dynasty of Ancient China, we have far bigger issues to worry about than a fucking wall.
Yes, we need some serious immigration reform, but the wall is not the answer or even an effective solution at that.
Seriously, that's like the solution a toddler would come up with to the immigration issue. It's ridiculous.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts

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27 Jan 2020 05:49 - 27 Jan 2020 05:49 #348889 by Adder

CaesarEJW wrote: Seriously, that's like the solution a toddler would come up with to the immigration issue. It's ridiculous.


Only if the toddler thinks its the extent of the solution..
Complex problems usually have multi-faceted solutions and I expect any wall is part of a solution other then the entirety if it.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 05:49 by Adder.
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27 Jan 2020 19:55 #348930 by CaesarEJW

Adder wrote:

CaesarEJW wrote: Seriously, that's like the solution a toddler would come up with to the immigration issue. It's ridiculous.


Only if the toddler thinks its the extent of the solution..
Complex problems usually have multi-faceted solutions and I expect any wall is part of a solution other then the entirety if it.

I agree completely. Complex issues require complex answers.

“Muddy water is best cleared by leaving it alone.” - Alan Watts

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27 Jan 2020 20:59 #348934 by Malicious
Yes I know the wall seems a little much , but it's a start . If the politicians on both sides of the aisle would stop pounding sand then maybe we would get somewhere with the immigration Reformation but that will be a while a way . Someone had a good point about people over staying there visa , well at the least we know who they are , why they came and can be held accountable for any crimes they commit unlike undocumented illegal immigrants we know nothing or little to nothing about . The wall is meant not to be an all in one solution but to slow them down as much as possible to where boarder patrol can handle it . Yes you can use large latters but it will still slow them down and make it to where there can be less of them coming in at once .

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27 Jan 2020 21:56 #348940 by Neaj Pa Bol
Here in AZ it's always been a hotbed topic. Whether it's water stations out in the desert to help with the decline of deaths in the summer's heat to Border Patrol issues to tunnels, trucks crossing in the dead of night on no road areas, etc...

There is no exact answer. Some have said it's politics vs Cartel Money vs Human Rights vs US sovereignty, etc...

It's not going to be resolved overnight, no clear answers as of yet. Every time they discover a way to stop one way to enter, a few more pop up somewhere... sad to say.

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27 Jan 2020 22:10 - 27 Jan 2020 22:15 #348941 by Br. John

Malicious wrote: Yes I know the wall seems a little much , but it's a start . If the politicians on both sides of the aisle would stop pounding sand then maybe we would get somewhere with the immigration Reformation but that will be a while a way . Someone had a good point about people over staying there visa , well at the least we know who they are , why they came and can be held accountable for any crimes they commit unlike undocumented illegal immigrants we know nothing or little to nothing about . The wall is meant not to be an all in one solution but to slow them down as much as possible to where boarder patrol can handle it . Yes you can use large latters but it will still slow them down and make it to where there can be less of them coming in at once .


You are not responding to anything I posted. I gave references.

The 2 Republican Senators and 25 Republican Representatives (from Texas) all voted against the wall. There are already barriers in place where the vast majority attempt to cross. Improving those that need it makes sense. There are hundreds of miles where there are plenty of dead bodies because there's only massive amounts of desert. [T]he longest contiguous unfenced stretch of border — more than 600 miles total — is in the middle of Texas. There's no major city here on either side of the border. Billions of dollars for miles and miles of a wall to destroy the environment where almost nobody attempts to cross and most of the few that do die along the way.

Why is that a good idea? Please read the articles I posted and refute them. See: www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...-john?start=0#348813 And See: www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...-john?start=0#348824

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Last edit: 27 Jan 2020 22:15 by Br. John.

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27 Jan 2020 23:11 #348946 by ZealotX

Malicious wrote: Yes I know the wall seems a little much , but it's a start . If the politicians on both sides of the aisle would stop pounding sand then maybe we would get somewhere with the immigration Reformation but that will be a while a way . Someone had a good point about people over staying there visa , well at the least we know who they are , why they came and can be held accountable for any crimes they commit unlike undocumented illegal immigrants we know nothing or little to nothing about . The wall is meant not to be an all in one solution but to slow them down as much as possible to where boarder patrol can handle it . Yes you can use large latters but it will still slow them down and make it to where there can be less of them coming in at once .



Dear Malicious,

Spending $10B as a "Start" is not a good idea. In fact it really isn't a solution at all. Any "fixed" defense can be strategically evaded. It's just like plugging 1 hole for computer viruses to go through. Once people who make the viruses see the plugged hole they will simply find another exploit or find a way to unplug the hole. The border wall did slow people down... for about as long as it took for people to see that they could simply cut through it. It's like proposing to build the great wall of china but missing the fact that the walls surrounding castles and kingdoms were often meant to slow down invaders and stop people from coming in on horses. You know... medieval attack strategies. However, if the wall was too long, an invasion force would simply come in at a less guarded point. No wall was ever impregnable. And the thicker the wall is the more it costs. Trump thinks this is a good idea because he likes construction and can probably make sure construction companies he knows gets a lot of the work and can give kickbacks for the contracts to Trump business entities. Remember Haliburton?

A better idea:

Contract Elon Musk to build an army of electric powered drones that can fly long distances and act like Roombas. Create several "bases" with charging stations that they can automatically dock at and power them with solar panels. Launch a few satellites that can double as internet providers for rural areas near the border. Have those satellites track people spotted by drones. Have small stations of border patrol along the border who can pick people up who are spotted. These drones could have several cameras each, including a camera attached to a telescope. You can also have hot air balloons tethered to each station equipped with an emergency parachute. There are many other things you can do without spending $10-20billion on a dumb wall that can't see anyone who makes a hole through it.

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