Why do people here feel unimportant?

Wescli Wardest wrote:

Edan wrote: Council transparency is something I have been asking for for ages and is one thing I believe that would help, in fact, it is probably the primary solution.

what does Council transparency mean?

Or, what is it that is felt we're not being transparent about?

Perhaps a new thread is required for this?


My thoughts? (Just talking....musing...)

* A list of active/current Council Discussions
* A list of Pending Council Discussions
* A list of Council Active Votes
* An updated thread of Council Changes/Edits to public based documents

At least...these are things I would apply at my group Not perfect...but maybe useful?

seems to me a large number of complaint are repeated because no one knows its being "Discussed" so it goes 'ring around the rosie'

Wescli Wardest wrote: If anyone ever wanted to know what we were discussing all they would have to do is ask.

To me, transparency means being pro-active. I don't think we should have to ask, necessarily.

Maybe there could be a "Summary of Last Council Meeting" type thread. A councilor or the secretary or someone like that could update it with that kind of information. What was discussed, what got voted on, things like that. No one has to mention names for those sorts of things. I don't think that would bother anyone. And I, personally, wouldn't want to read through the "minutes" in their entirety.

First, Council is just a forum like any other and people weigh in when they can. So, sometimes things take a LONG time. And there may be several things being discussed at once.
That said, let me ask another set of questions…

How would a list of currently discussed topics, help the membership on their path?
Does it add to the lessons or help members become better/more Jedi?
Why would knowing what was being discussed make people feel more important?

And, like I said earlier, a lot of times we do ask for outside opinions. In the Knight’s forums.

Announcing changes that have been decided is not an unreasonable request. We have a Council Secretary and that could be added to his duties. So guess what topic will be discussed in Council…

As for votes, unless it is a straw vote, we try to keep them anonymous. So unless you asked the Councilor how they voted, we’ll never know.

So, to keep things on track, how would transparency in the Council help anyone with their studies, be a better Jedi or feel more important?

Goken, to answer your second questions, I'd say that what would make me feel valued is if somebody got excited about improving the temple. Every day.

Here's how the process works now:
1. Idea by member.
2. Told to higher ups:
3. They say "cool, do it!" But, then it's like pulling teeth. You're told you have no real power. You're told that your opinions don't matter. You should accept this is how the group is. Leave it alone.

And, then the idea dies and temple remains still. Decaying.

What I'd want is a different 3.
I'd want them to set up committees, allow ideas to actually change things daily. No more of this red tape garbage. I'm not talking about specific goals either. I'm talking about a mindset we have as a site that we should just relax and just kind of be here.

Imagine if we approached our own training that way. "oh i think deadlifting 300 lbs would be a great goal for my weight lifting! But, that would take excitement and work.. Maybe I'll just stay like I am and let the world pass me by."

It sounds ridiculous. And if any Knight's apprentice had that attitude, I'd hope they'd chastize the apprentice for that attitude.

Kit wrote: I want people to realize what their rank MEANS. That it has weight. What they say often caries more because of some band under their picture. I'm not saying they should censor but just be AWARE of what it means. We have all sorts of classes at every level for this in the Air Force. Maybe something in a lesson plan somewhere.

That's actually not a bad lesson for Apprenticeship. Perhaps some of the training masters will take that into consideration.

Wescli Wardest wrote: First, Council is just a forum like any other and people weigh in when they can. So, sometimes things take a LONG time. And there may be several things being discussed at once.
That said, let me ask another set of questions…

How would a list of currently discussed topics, help the membership on their path?
Does it add to the lessons or help members become better/more Jedi?
Why would knowing what was being discussed make people feel more important?

And, like I said earlier, a lot of times we do ask for outside opinions. In the Knight’s forums.

Announcing changes that have been decided is not an unreasonable request. We have a Council Secretary and that could be added to his duties. So guess what topic will be discussed in Council…

As for votes, unless it is a straw vote, we try to keep them anonymous. So unless you asked the Councilor how they voted, we’ll never know.

So, to keep things on track, how would transparency in the Council help anyone with their studies, be a better Jedi or feel more important?

It's not about feeling important, it's not about studies, it's about feeling listened to.

I made a suggestion in the knights forum re council... In the same thread a council member suggested a Secretary...guess who got their suggestion discussed and whose was shot down without discussion.

By seeing what is being discussed, members know that council have been reading threads, listening to ideas, taking things on board.

We are a community in our entirety, council and populace. Sitting 'up there' without showing you value our thoughts and ideas is frustrating and opaque.

Edan wrote: It's not about feeling important, it's not about studies, it's about feeling listened to.

Not just that (Though very on point) But a Community is a Team. This Temple is a Team. Teams work together through problems big or small.

If we go by your questions Wescli Wardest then i have one for you - Why should I be here at the Temple? I certainly don't NEED to be here to be a Jedi.

I do, however, prefer to be apart of a team of many than a team of one though

It's not about feeling important, it's not about studies, it's about feeling listened to.

But it was brought up in the “why do people feel unimportant” thread?
:huh:

Sometimes suggestions are shot down for various reasons. Usually, because they have either been discussed before or tried and not worked out. Sometimes more tack could be used when saying no. I am one that does not always write in the most tactful manor, and I know that I am guilty of it. It’s not that I mean to be mean, it’s just my speech patterns. I am usually straight forward and direct. I have also spent years here at TotJO trying to figure out how to talk to people because they have feelings that seem easily hurt. Not meaning you in particular, but sometimes when I say things it sounds harsh I guess. I’m still working on it.

Most things discussed in Council have to do with inner workings. I could get a list if it would make people feel better. But it is nothing exciting and most of it doesn’t have to do with what is posted in threads unless there is some reason. Ideas are listened to, but we rarely get those. I know that people have ideas, but how many have sent a PM to Council members stating those ideas?

Trisskar wrote:

Edan wrote: It's not about feeling important, it's not about studies, it's about feeling listened to.

Not just that (Though very on point) But a Community is a Team. This Temple is a Team. Teams work together through problems big or small.

If we go by your questions Wescli Wardest then i have one for you - Why should I be here at the Temple? I certainly don't NEED to be here to be a Jedi.

I do, however, prefer to be apart of a team of many than a team of one though

I think you answered your own question... "I do, however, prefer to be apart of a team of many than a team of one though "

This is not meant to be sarcastic or rude or what ever, and I know we are a community and family, and we have many teams each tasked with it's own purpose. Like I said before... we are not hiding anything, but focusing on working out the details to the inner workings is not what we, Council, wants the membership to focus on. There is so much more here than updating the FAQ, or cleaning up links, working on becoming a recognized entity. These are all things that distract from TotJO's mission. Which is to help it's membership find their, not our, path of Jediism.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Which is to help it's membership find their, not our, path of Jediism.

There path of Jediism IS this Temples path.

If it wasn't it wouldn't be so against the rules for other groups to come in and share their path lessons

Why do you think people care so much about the Inner workings of this temple?

Because it is THIS temple that is Guiding their path.

I for one would like to know the car I drive on my Adventure is capable of handling the terrain hehe

Wescli Wardest wrote: But it was brought up in the “why do people feel unimportant” thread?
:huh:

This thread (as well as the "listening" thread) both stem from a thread that devolved into people feeling dismissed. That dismissal can take many forms, but primarily people don't feel important if they don't feel listened to.

Trisskar wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: Which is to help it's membership find their, not our, path of Jediism.

There path of Jediism IS this Temples path.

If it wasn't it wouldn't be so against the rules for other groups to come in and share their path lessons

Why do you think people care so much about the Inner workings of this temple?

Because it is THIS temple that is Guiding their path.

I for one would like to know the car I drive on my Adventure is capable of handling the terrain hehe

So, are you saying that TotJO should tell you how to be a Jedi and what to believe?

And that unless Council tells you every single thing it does, thinks about or even contemplates you won't be convinced your on a path that will get you to the end of your adventure?

The lessons that are approved to be taught here are because they only point you to find your way. Not tell you what way that is. We have no idea what others are teaching and do not want to go through their entire curriculum to find out. So it is not allowed.

TotJO should not be your path. It is just a stepping stone to a path that will lead you on a greater adventure. I can not speak for the Council on this, but in my opinion, no one should put their faith in a thing, virtual or physical. Your path is in you, and we hope to be able to help you discover it. What is talked about in Council rarely has anything to do with your path.

steamboat28 wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: But it was brought up in the “why do people feel unimportant” thread?
:huh:

This thread (as well as the "listening" thread) both stem from a thread that devolved into people feeling dismissed. That dismissal can take many forms, but primarily people don't feel important if they don't feel listened to.

And yet I have spent a majority of my day at work, not working, but listening to the people. And I feel as if I am only getting confrontation and we are no where closer to a resolution. Perhaps I feel as if I am not being listened to? But, I will still try to be of assistance and help ease the stress of those that feel not listened to.

[/quote] And yet I have spent a majority of my day at work, not working, but listening to the people. And I feel as if I am only getting confrontation and we are no where closer to a resolution. Perhaps I feel as if I am not being listened to? But, I will still try to be of assistance and help ease the stress of those that feel not listened to.[/quote]

You're listened too. I know you care.

Council Member wrote: The [topic being discussed in thread] are being discussed in Council at the moment, but as things stand you [topic being discussed in thread] (or wait until the discussion has finished lol).

Honestly, in my opinion, this is all that is needed. You're right, Wescli, that most of us probably wouldn't be too interested in large amounts of what the council talks about. But that's now what we're talking about here.

From my understanding, what people really want is to feel heard. Something as simple as "It is being discussed by the council" is a good step. Or, if it is not going to be discussed, "Here's why it won't be discussed," and it really needs to be beyond, "It's already been discussed." That can certainly be a part of it, but if it was discussed what were the results? That would help.

The second pattern I'm noticing (no longer directed at your post Wescli) is the word "dismissive." People are feeling like their ideas, and ultimately them as people, are being dismissed. That, to me, seems to be more about how things are worded than the actual actions. Actions are part of it, but words are too. We interact in a way in which words are everything. Here the pen (or actually the keyboard) is MUCH mightier than the sword. In a way, the keyboard is our sword here.

About to get lost in a metaphor, gotta pull myself back... :ohmy: :S :pinch:



That means, to me, we all just need to maybe work on not being rude. Some people are more "thick skinned" than others so it's important to remember our audience. As I've said in other threads related to this more specific topic, we (the readers) may also want to work on trying to really figure out if a person meant to be rude or not. Intention is not the only thing that matters, but it does matter. It goes both ways.

Those seem, to me, to be what I'm getting most out of this thread. 1) Acknowledgment that our ideas were heard. 2) People not being rude or dismissive to us.

That dismissal can take many forms, but primarily people don't feel important if they don't feel listened to.

I agree wholeheartedly but is it physically possible to listen to and respond to everyone? This is a fairly large number of people, communication challenges increase geometrically to membership growth.

Wescli Wardest wrote: And yet I have spent a majority of my day at work, not working, but listening to the people. And I feel as if I am only getting confrontation and we are no where closer to a resolution. Perhaps I feel as if I am not being listened to? But, I will still try to be of assistance and help ease the stress of those that feel not listened to.

I thank you for doing so. In my opinion, the very fact that you are here and you are listening helps. Your interaction with us shows that you, and by extension the Council, cares. I hope that you do not see my above comments as combative in any way as they were not meant to be.

Wescli Wardest wrote: And I feel as if I am only getting confrontation

Hmm.... Well, I apologize for my part in your stress. If you are at work, perhaps you should focus on that until you are in a better environment to discuss Because....That was all i was doing....Just talking, discussing, musing.

I never meant to "Confront" you.

And In actually I am actually listening to you I get what you are saying.....I have lead several groups and been on other councils. I totally GET what you are saying

I think though....That you are not listening to me. As is evident in your last post to me and your extremely exaggerated commentary.

No one ( I sure didn't) say we have to know all the details.... (I) would just like to know the ground basics as I outlined it several posts back. It sure would help me to know what you (the council) is discussing so that (I) can better understand the topics when they are presented so that we can maybe avoid re-hashing old things

Thats all.

But, since this commentary is stressful to you. I will pull back and go back to working on my Kata Kitty My daughter is sick with fever so I find I have maybe too much time on my hands today.

*bows* Have a great day Wescli Wardest! Good luck with work!

Wescli Wardest wrote:

steamboat28 wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote: But it was brought up in the “why do people feel unimportant” thread?
:huh:

This thread (as well as the "listening" thread) both stem from a thread that devolved into people feeling dismissed. That dismissal can take many forms, but primarily people don't feel important if they don't feel listened to.

And yet I have spent a majority of my day at work, not working, but listening to the people. And I feel as if I am only getting confrontation and we are no where closer to a resolution. Perhaps I feel as if I am not being listened to? But, I will still try to be of assistance and help ease the stress of those that feel not listened to.

i wanted to also say THANK YOU for this - i honestly would not want anyone to compromise their day to day obligations in order "listen to my feelings" lol over the internet, if i knew thats what they were doing i would likely say "well we can talk later", but this willingness to hear people out makes all the difference

a lot of times we broadcast a fair bit of noise along with our signal, or I certainly do anyway, and i guess the essence of "active listening" is that willingness to find and understand the signal, which is well demonstrated here and is much appreciated