Apprentice Arisaigs article on Grey Jedi

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

Proteus wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

As I said, in the case of Grey, hopefully it isn't a whole lifetime. The other two, I would hope, be a lifetime venture if taken on by a person wholeheartedly, as both encourage growth, always.

People can call themselves Sith Shadow Emperor Jedi of the Light for all I care. The fruits of their labor will define them more, both outside and in. I have been a Jedi for years. Whether I have respect for calling myself that or not I don't know. But I do know that here at the Temple, a place I have been for over 6 years, I am novice. Why? Because I have done nothing to earn more than that by this Temples system. I don't prance around calling myself a master here. I walk quietly and call myself a novice.

I enjoyed reading the article, by the way. I point no fingers but I feel there are some out there that this perfectly describes.

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

As I said, in the case of Grey, hopefully it isn't a whole lifetime. The other two, I would hope, be a lifetime venture if taken on by a person wholeheartedly, as both encourage growth, always.

Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

Proteus wrote: Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

I encourage change if it encourages betterment. I feel a great Sith would also make a great Jedi, and vice versa. These transitions in life are healthy. But I have found that identifying as Grey is often a warning to oneself.

It does not mean each one of us is a perfect example of either Code, and we all fall into that Grey category. But to settle for what we are instead of striving to embody the impossible is where I draw issue.

Here is Darth Vader in Pink with a Heart. Better??

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

I encourage change if it encourages betterment. I feel a great Sith would also make a great Jedi, and vice versa. These transitions in life are healthy. But I have found that identifying as Grey is often a warning to oneself.

It does not mean each one of us is a perfect example of either Code, and we all fall into that Grey category. But to settle for what we are instead of striving to embody the impossible is where I draw issue.

I think I see how you're looking at it then. I think many people see the spectrum kind of in the same vein as character classes in an RPG game - things you willingly choose and you hold up, like a supporter of your favorite football team, or even better, that you are a player on that team and you strive to be the best dang team player that you can be, etc etc.

I think I was confused because I see the spectrum more as an effect than a cause. I don't choose the kind of Jedi I am, instead it happens upon me at different points of my journey. To me it's akin to say, the force of being in love I guess. It chooses you whether you want it or not, much like if someone identifies as heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual (and while there are arguments between whether one is born with a sexuality or not, people quite often feel they are one thing and then realize later on, commonly against their own will, that they are actually something else). Though, I suppose its a bit more flexible to change than one's sexuality perhaps (or perhaps sexuality is more flexible than I tend to have the impression it is).

I guess I've never been one to judge or criticize whether one is light/grey/dark because I feel it would be like judging someone who, for example, thought they were male much of their life and are in the middle of a gender transition, and are on a natural part of their own path where they are going through the motions of figuring out really who/what they are, and I suppose that transition phase can be a quite necessary and valuable part of them learning.

So I suppose if one sees the Jedi spectrum in terms of football teams, than its easy to say "if you're going to be a football fan, you need to get REAL about the team you're going to be on and stop moping about indecisively if you want to get the most out of this sport! I guess I just don't see it that way.

Like Proteus, these kinds of discussions typically cause me to question why we identify as these things to begin with. Titles are good for explaining to others what we currently believe or what path we are on, but they really are arbitrary. They are used for convenience in communication, but not always accurate or clear.

To use the football analogy, lets say I play for the Giants now. Im a Giant. Thats what I tell people and thats the uniform I wear. But then I get traded to the Patriots. Now I identify as a Patriot and wear that uniform. All along I was neither a Giant or Patriot. I am a football player.

In the same way, whether i am Jedi or Sith or Stoic or Liberal or any other title that communicates my current path in a convenient way to others, I am ultimately just a human. That is the only title that doesnt change. It is my behavior as a human that determines how others identify me. Often I have no say in it, so the titles only matter when they impact the way others choose to treat me.

This is why I hesitate to judge others, hold others to a certain standard, or call myself flawed. The scales we use to judge ourselves and others and the titles we use are what is actually flawed. Sure, we can always try to improve and be a better version of ourselves, but “better” is always subjective. A serial killer can become a “better” killer as in being more effective, but the rest of us would say that they have become worse.

This is why i feel all of us are always “grey”. The titles will always be too arbitrary to ever be black or white. We can only control and change our own actions, and that is what will define us in the eyes of others regardless of what we call ourselves.

Just getting this down while I'm thinking about it (about flaws): How often do we mistake things we simply don't identify with / don't understand, with being a flaw? And how does one know that what one does, say, as a "grey Jedi" is not simply something one just doesn't understand or identify with? Are we truly sure that being grey is just an act of stagnating, or is that just how its interpreted because that is how our own personal view of how Jedi identity works when seeing it?

Proteus wrote: Just getting this down while I'm thinking about it (about flaws): How often do we mistake things we simply don't identify with / don't understand, with being a flaw? And how does one know that what one does, say, as a "grey Jedi" is not simply something one just doesn't understand or identify with? Are we truly sure that being grey is just an act of stagnating, or is that just how its interpreted because that is how our own personal view of how Jedi identity works when seeing it?

Perhaps its just a personal view, but in this case it is a well researched personal view. I've talked to many different Greys and taken the time to understand their views. I've written a piece on a Grey philosophy, Potentium, that I even followed for a while. I've spent my time as a Grey, and I found myself making excuses for my less complimenting aspects more and more often, even for a time slipping back into who I was before.

Grey is not always stagnant, but at risk of stagnation. And at many stages in our lives we may find ourselves slowing down and at this risk. A Jedi recognises this and gets going again, as I have, after finding myself stagnating under the guise of Grey. Its okay to slow down once and while. We can't be going full force 24/7. But to make identity in that slowing, to be okay with it, and even defend stopping, is where the fault of Grey lies.

EDIT: So no, its not something I'm viewing as an outsider, nor is it outside the realm of my understanding or experience.

This is from my own personal practice

What I see as weak - others see as strong.
What I see as himderance others see as a way.
One of the toughest things as a Jedi I have come to grips with is can I be me while the other person is - not me. In a world of over 7,500,000,000 at 16:21(UTC) on April 24, 2017 (yea) to say that each one is unique seems —- well unlikely . But yet each fingerprint each of us is as different as the next. Jedi ism is NO exception. The ability to use our syncritism how we see fit - is a great freedom but also the more difficult to accept. Anything here as spoke for can be true to that person stating . But that’s where it may stop. Others may share the idea but once again that might not be the practice of all.
When we find gems and truths for us in our path - I know I did - we tend to think it’s true for every one. That can lead to a lot of trial and upset. There is a freedom in the belief that each of us have to define our own path for ourself and can’t define a path for anynone else. Patience to you may be stubbornness for me yet they both result the same outcome for us both.
When we say things like - I find this to be true - remember - you found it - it’s yours and yours alone - many may find similar and even the same -but what I find only applys to me.
Dictators tell others what to do and how to do it . I encourage every Jedi to Leave room for others to make desisions on their own. I teach students to define themselfs - not me - how you respond to others speaks volumes about what is inside.

Action is the blossom of thought - James Allen with influence from Voltaire.

Arisaig wrote: Perhaps its just a personal view, but in this case it is a well researched personal view. I've talked to many different Greys and taken the time to understand their views.

Really??!! Hmmh…

I just question this because I find your viewpoint is one that has a shocking lack of understanding of the Grey path. Many of the comments here are similar in that regard towards the Grey path as well as the Sith path.

I think Senan has gotten as close as anyone can in the true meaning of “Grey”. In the first place there are no such things as “Grey Jedi”. That is a contradiction in terms and anyone that claims that title is missing the point. In actuality there is only the Grey. You talk of things like mother destroyer and father creator and light and dark and good and bad and right and wrong like a follower of the Grey even acknowledges such things. Just like the Christian you are imposing your skewed and limited dualistic worldview onto us and then chastising us for not conforming. You say you have followed the Grey path? I say you have never even known the first thing about the Grey path.

Others here have talked about the Sith path like it is some opposite to Jediism. It’s not. Yes its guiding star is Passion in ones life by facing that blackness not only in themselves but in nature as a whole. But in this I would say they are even more extreme in breaking these old stereotypes that you are trying to impose on others. While you still see a distinction between the light and the dark, the Grey sees no distinction, but if I were a Sith I would say I find the construct itself to be a lie. The goal of a sith is to free herself from any system of control and in that find freedom. That freedom includes not only freedom from moral systems but freedom from any system of control. This includes controls like selfishness, indifference etc. It is in these ideas that a Sith can be just as driven in her compassion as she can be by ruthless. The difference is that she has the freedom to choose at will.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Perhaps its just a personal view, but in this case it is a well researched personal view. I've talked to many different Greys and taken the time to understand their views.

Really??!! Hmmh…

I just question this because I find your viewpoint is one that has a shocking lack of understanding of the Grey path. Many of the comments here are similar in that regard towards the Grey path as well as the Sith path.

Perhaps my views on it do not align to your own. That is the nature of opinions and experiences.

In this end, this was just an article I wrote, a think-piece to get people, well, thinking. And I think it did just that. Love how the conversation has gone so far, lots of excellent questions and debate.

One day Kyrin will learn how to approach people's thoughts and mindsets sideways, and be unstoppable.


(Until then, I expect the attitude will be "Puny humans who can't stand the harsh light of my truth face-on are not worth knowing" or "Weak willed sheep who need me to lead them deserve to be slaughtered")


I hope I'm wrong, because I'd miss the quality rhetoric.

Arisaig wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Perhaps its just a personal view, but in this case it is a well researched personal view. I've talked to many different Greys and taken the time to understand their views.

Really??!! Hmmh…

I just question this because I find your viewpoint is one that has a shocking lack of understanding of the Grey path. Many of the comments here are similar in that regard towards the Grey path as well as the Sith path.

Perhaps my views on it do not align to your own. That is the nature of opinions and experiences.

In this end, this was just an article I wrote, a think-piece to get people, well, thinking. And I think it did just that. Love how the conversation has gone so far, lots of excellent questions and debate.

You are correct that your opinions do not align to mine in this. However yours also do not align to truth because you have encased yourself in these ideologies that you, as a Jedi, are elite and therefore more enlightened than a Grey, who, in your opinion, is following an incorrect path and needs to change direction. This is not the case and so I encourage you to get away from these dogmatic principles and truly become the individual thinker and forger of the path less traveled you claim to follow by being open enough to truly discuss it. I'm always willing.

JamesSand wrote: One day Kyrin will learn how to approach people's thoughts and mindsets sideways, and be unstoppable.


(Until then, I expect the attitude will be "Puny humans who can't stand the harsh light of my truth face-on are not worth knowing" or "Weak willed sheep who need me to lead them deserve to be slaughtered")


I hope I'm wrong, because I'd miss the quality rhetoric.

In the context of this conversation, this judgement seems a little... harsh? While Kyrin's approach is direct and always challenging another's view, I know Arisaig is quite capable of considering her words and responding appropriately as he has demonstrated above. It would seem that we are all learning to read not just the words, but also the intent. Despite it being frustrating to deal with someone who is almost always contrarian, I honestly believe Kyrin is not trying to force agreement on anyone. Just as I honestly accept that Arisaig has written an article that I don't wholly agree with, but has served as an excellent starting point for a productive and intriguing conversation so far. We are moving the topic forward in various ways, and so long as we can continue to be respectful and discuss the topic and not attack people personally, even while challenging or disagreeing, I think we're still all good here.

I am wondering whom you might consider an authority on The Grey path, Kyrin?

I think we're still all good here.

Don't worry about me buddy, I have all the time in the worth for both Ari and Kyrin, and I know they're both more than capable of looking after themselves and presenting or ceding their points as they see fit.