Apprentice Arisaigs article on Grey Jedi

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

Proteus wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

As I said, in the case of Grey, hopefully it isn't a whole lifetime. The other two, I would hope, be a lifetime venture if taken on by a person wholeheartedly, as both encourage growth, always.

People can call themselves Sith Shadow Emperor Jedi of the Light for all I care. The fruits of their labor will define them more, both outside and in. I have been a Jedi for years. Whether I have respect for calling myself that or not I don't know. But I do know that here at the Temple, a place I have been for over 6 years, I am novice. Why? Because I have done nothing to earn more than that by this Temples system. I don't prance around calling myself a master here. I walk quietly and call myself a novice.

I enjoyed reading the article, by the way. I point no fingers but I feel there are some out there that this perfectly describes.

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Do you believe these Jedi "spectrums" are (or ought to be) static over a lifetime, or do they come on upon certain conditions (ie. age, psychological effects of past experiences, crisis of identity, etc)? I think what I'm asking is - does being light, grey, etc define the person over the whole lifetime or is it more a definition on where they currently are in their life?

In the case of Greys, hopefully only currently. Slipping back into old habits, or remaining static is bad for you. Humans are not designed to do the same thing day in and out for years. Compromises in your philosophy that can be justified by that same philosophy can lead on to doing just that.

Actually I mean in the case of identifying as Any kind of Jedi, not just grey. I'm asking about the general nature of "Jedi identity" itself. is calling one's self a Sith or a Light Jedi or whatever, a defining of that person timelessly or conditionally?

As I said, in the case of Grey, hopefully it isn't a whole lifetime. The other two, I would hope, be a lifetime venture if taken on by a person wholeheartedly, as both encourage growth, always.

Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

Proteus wrote: Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

I encourage change if it encourages betterment. I feel a great Sith would also make a great Jedi, and vice versa. These transitions in life are healthy. But I have found that identifying as Grey is often a warning to oneself.

It does not mean each one of us is a perfect example of either Code, and we all fall into that Grey category. But to settle for what we are instead of striving to embody the impossible is where I draw issue.

Here is Darth Vader in Pink with a Heart. Better??

Arisaig wrote:

Proteus wrote: Okay, I understand that you don't support being grey (you seem to be using that as a scapegoat for your answers here). My questions though are intended to be outside of the topic of whether its good or not to be grey. I'm trying to get us to first back up a bit in our understanding of what it means to identify as whatever kind of Jedi one is (to first explore the nature of why one feels they are light/grey/dark at all).

So, just to understand you better, are you saying that you believe a person should be identified for their entire life as dark or light, and not change, but never be grey? Do you feel it is bad if one transitions over the time of their life? What I'm asking is, what exactly is your understanding on the nature of Jedi Identity? Because I think this plays a significant role in your interpretation of being grey (and even with putting any significance on the spectrum label at all).

I encourage change if it encourages betterment. I feel a great Sith would also make a great Jedi, and vice versa. These transitions in life are healthy. But I have found that identifying as Grey is often a warning to oneself.

It does not mean each one of us is a perfect example of either Code, and we all fall into that Grey category. But to settle for what we are instead of striving to embody the impossible is where I draw issue.

I think I see how you're looking at it then. I think many people see the spectrum kind of in the same vein as character classes in an RPG game - things you willingly choose and you hold up, like a supporter of your favorite football team, or even better, that you are a player on that team and you strive to be the best dang team player that you can be, etc etc.

I think I was confused because I see the spectrum more as an effect than a cause. I don't choose the kind of Jedi I am, instead it happens upon me at different points of my journey. To me it's akin to say, the force of being in love I guess. It chooses you whether you want it or not, much like if someone identifies as heterosexual, bisexual, or homosexual (and while there are arguments between whether one is born with a sexuality or not, people quite often feel they are one thing and then realize later on, commonly against their own will, that they are actually something else). Though, I suppose its a bit more flexible to change than one's sexuality perhaps (or perhaps sexuality is more flexible than I tend to have the impression it is).

I guess I've never been one to judge or criticize whether one is light/grey/dark because I feel it would be like judging someone who, for example, thought they were male much of their life and are in the middle of a gender transition, and are on a natural part of their own path where they are going through the motions of figuring out really who/what they are, and I suppose that transition phase can be a quite necessary and valuable part of them learning.

So I suppose if one sees the Jedi spectrum in terms of football teams, than its easy to say "if you're going to be a football fan, you need to get REAL about the team you're going to be on and stop moping about indecisively if you want to get the most out of this sport! I guess I just don't see it that way.

Like Proteus, these kinds of discussions typically cause me to question why we identify as these things to begin with. Titles are good for explaining to others what we currently believe or what path we are on, but they really are arbitrary. They are used for convenience in communication, but not always accurate or clear.

To use the football analogy, lets say I play for the Giants now. Im a Giant. Thats what I tell people and thats the uniform I wear. But then I get traded to the Patriots. Now I identify as a Patriot and wear that uniform. All along I was neither a Giant or Patriot. I am a football player.

In the same way, whether i am Jedi or Sith or Stoic or Liberal or any other title that communicates my current path in a convenient way to others, I am ultimately just a human. That is the only title that doesnt change. It is my behavior as a human that determines how others identify me. Often I have no say in it, so the titles only matter when they impact the way others choose to treat me.

This is why I hesitate to judge others, hold others to a certain standard, or call myself flawed. The scales we use to judge ourselves and others and the titles we use are what is actually flawed. Sure, we can always try to improve and be a better version of ourselves, but “better” is always subjective. A serial killer can become a “better” killer as in being more effective, but the rest of us would say that they have become worse.

This is why i feel all of us are always “grey”. The titles will always be too arbitrary to ever be black or white. We can only control and change our own actions, and that is what will define us in the eyes of others regardless of what we call ourselves.