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25 Aug 2020 21:34 #354131 by Verheilen
Replied by Verheilen on topic real force users
I've never felt actual physical manifestations of the force, or what some have described in this thread as "Force Powers". But I have experienced what would be described as "Precognition" in Star Wars terms. I have, on several occasions throughout my life, seen into my own future. I mentioned this in the "Why Jediism" thread yesterday, so I won't go into to much detail as to not make the same post twice. I'll just give the same example.

About 7 years ago I had a dream about moving into a new house. I saw the rooms of the house, the people living there, my room and the view of the outside surroundings from the window. I had never seen this house, I had no idea who the people were, and I'd never seen the neighborhood before. Two years later I moved into that house, and met those people for the first time. It all came rushing back to me as I looked out my window at the same view that I'd had in my dream.

Due to the fact that I've had so many experiences like this throughout my life, and due to the very specific nature and detail involved in the dreams, I've dismissed this as being just coincidence or deja vu. My mother and my sister have also described to me similar instances of this happening to them. I guess it runs in the family.

To live will be an awfully big adventure. - Peter Pan

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26 Aug 2020 09:31 #354143 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic real force users

Verheilen wrote: About 7 years ago I had a dream about moving into a new house. I saw the rooms of the house, the people living there, my room and the view of the outside surroundings from the window. I had never seen this house, I had no idea who the people were, and I'd never seen the neighborhood before. Two years later I moved into that house, and met those people for the first time. It all came rushing back to me as I looked out my window at the same view that I'd had in my dream.

Due to the fact that I've had so many experiences like this throughout my life, and due to the very specific nature and detail involved in the dreams, I've dismissed this as being just coincidence or deja vu. My mother and my sister have also described to me similar instances of this happening to them. I guess it runs in the family.

Even at face value it is difficult to insist that it could not have been coincidental. After all, how many dreams did you have at one point or another that were completely unrealistic? How many dreams were realistic but just never came true? What about dreams that have not come true yet but have no expiration date and could come true five days from now, or in another five years, or in five decades yet? Now consider how many dreams there are that didn't quite come true, but almost. Where only individual details were ever so slightly off. Would those events count as pre-conceived in a dream?

By and large we know that for the most part dreams are what our brains do when idling. Some may be a matter of dealing/coping with events or people in our lives, and generally it is a resting mechanism. Indeed, I'm sure many can recall having dreams that upon waking faded away such that by the afternoon there was only a memory of a dream, maybe a person in it, but no more recollection of its content. Some nights we remember has having not dreamt at all - for some people this is even more the rule than the exception - but chances are that we have and that none of it was written to memory because dreams are a by-product of resting, not useful or important information in its own right and our brains are so built as to mostly erase them before we realize we had them or have much time to process them. Most of us don't write down what we dreamt either, in part because we don't remember, in part because we understand that there really isn't a reason to. And when we do write them down we often fill in details we didn't actually see, and in so doing we alter our memories of the dreams as we alter any memory we recall, though more severely in this case.

So it gets worse. It's easy enough to dismiss a claim like this (even one's own) on statistical grounds as illustrated above even when taking it at face value, but in most cases even doing that is far from warranted: Is it not more likely (than a very vague revelation from a magical power underlying the universe that seems to otherwise have no physical impact on anything else including our very much physical brains) that something in that new home and neighborhood five years ago triggered you to call a then two years old dream into memory, and this association made you re-write that dream to match what happened much more closely than it really did? Or did you have any sort of record of the dream to compare to the event? If we should be cautious about trusting memories of real events from two years ago, things that usually leave some kind of mark or record, or witnesses, would we really trust the memory of a dream? And that's assuming that there is no flaw in your recollection of the event that was itself some five years ago.

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26 Aug 2020 17:23 #354145 by Edan
Replied by Edan on topic real force users
I have something with dreams sometimes where I have a dream and I think I'm having a deja vu experience because I seem to remember having had it before. But then when I think about it, I can't actually be sure this isn't just the first time. Deja vu is like a brain 'bug'.. if you have deja vu about a dream, how can one ever be sure that that the dream even happened? Deja vu doesn't mean that you did do it before, only that your brain thinks you did.

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27 Aug 2020 02:26 #354148 by Verheilen
Replied by Verheilen on topic real force users

Gisteron wrote: So it gets worse. It's easy enough to dismiss a claim like this (even one's own) on statistical grounds as illustrated above even when taking it at face value, but in most cases even doing that is far from warranted: Is it not more likely (than a very vague revelation from a magical power underlying the universe that seems to otherwise have no physical impact on anything else including our very much physical brains) that something in that new home and neighborhood five years ago triggered you to call a then two years old dream into memory, and this association made you re-write that dream to match what happened much more closely than it really did? Or did you have any sort of record of the dream to compare to the event? If we should be cautious about trusting memories of real events from two years ago, things that usually leave some kind of mark or record, or witnesses, would we really trust the memory of a dream? And that's assuming that there is no flaw in your recollection of the event that was itself some five years ago.


I think the majority of people would be inclined to think this way, myself included, if presented with such a claim. I myself questioned whether or not these recollections were accurate, so I started keeping a record of these dreams when they occurred. They aren't like normal dreams, to me at least, they are always much more vivid and detailed. Also unlike my normal dreams, they don't fade as the day goes by, they stick out in my memory for days or even weeks at a time. When the moment of recollection happens, the deja vu, it's like my memory becomes photographic. I exact snapshot of what I'm seeing is recalled in my brain. The people I described in my example, it was specifically them from my dream. Exact descriptions from my records.

I know it doesn't seem scientific, realistic, or even probable. In fact, I think scientists have said you only dreams about things you've seen before. But isn't that what spirituality and stuff like this is all about? A belief in the unseen or the unexplainable. I'm not proclaiming myself a prophet or anything, I can only see my own future and have no control over when and where these dreams occur. But I 100% believe this to be a true phenomenon in my life.

To live will be an awfully big adventure. - Peter Pan

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27 Aug 2020 08:37 #354149 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic real force users

Verheilen wrote: I think the majority of people would be inclined to think this way, myself included, if presented with such a claim. I myself questioned whether or not these recollections were accurate, so I started keeping a record of these dreams when they occurred.

Good! So I assume the dream you mentioned was one of those you recorded; else you'd be sceptical about it as you have questioned other memories, too. Obviously you wouldn't alter the record you wrote seven years ago when ever the event in question happened five years ago, and instead made a separate record of the event. So we can try and grade the details in both account by significance and try and quantify how well they match in major and minor details. That's already a start, I say. :)

What would be great was if you also kept records of the "normal" dreams. After all, chances are that normal ones also match some future events at least in some minor details. If we had records of both we could compare not only the dream to the event but also assess whether the overlap was stronger than in a normal dream. The normal ones would be the reference frame, the control sample, if you will. And if we had records of multiple of those special dreams (and corresponding events) we could even make an estimate as to the error margins, our confidence in telling the special dreams from the normal ones. And if the time gap between them was small enough we could even restrict comparison between special and normal dreams to particular time periods in your life and see if there are correlations with other developments of emotional, intellectual, or health significance.


I know it doesn't seem scientific, realistic, or even probable... But isn't that what spirituality and stuff like this is all about? A belief in the unseen or the unexplainable.

It sure looks like it is to many. And in a way that is fair enough, too. I think we are individually and collectively better off reserving our belief to things we can warrant belief for, but what we need above all, I'd say, is the ability to openly discuss such things, even if that means that some beliefs may end up subject to more challenge than others or cracking under such scrutiny. I for one find more value in listening, reconsidering, and learning, than in just idle belief. In fact, to me there is very little value inherent in belief alone.

Since beliefs we have influence what other beliefs we come to adopt and how we come to act in the world and towards each other, I want my beliefs to be as accurate (with respect to the world they concern) as I can make them. If to some this sounds un-spiritual, that is fair enough. To me there are so many things we already have seen, each more beautiful and inspiring than the last. There are people who spend their lives studying mosquitos, eventhough most of them despise the bloodsuckers as much as the rest of us do. Something beautifully interesting can be found even in things we'd think vile elsewise. All this is to say, I wouldn't assert that the unseen or inexplicable is what spirituality needs to be about, eventhough, evidently, for many it is. Spiritual fulfilment - if one is to insist that it is needed and obtainable after some clarification as to what it even is - surely could be found also in things and people we see and understand around us every day, though. The Jedi Code itself, too, encourages a sober outlook on the world with its call for the pursuit of serenity and knowledge, and even the final line far from clearly overthrows all that, in my opinion.

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27 Aug 2020 19:33 #354156 by forceuser
Replied by forceuser on topic real force users
I do believe your dreams can come true.
I believe you are probably more sensitive to these things then most people are.
I too have had many things happen like that for example I hear a voice say something to me to the effect a man with the black shirt and white pants will be coming around the corner with the blue hat and stop and ask you a question
And sure enough it happens 5 seconds later.

Same thing with other psychic abilities or whatever except I try not to bring it up to people especially on this website unless I have eyewitnesses to verify what I have said is true

Even then people here. Can't even fathom that it really happened.

It's the same thing with eyesight there's a huge spectrum of light in the universe except our physical eyes for most people can only see in a certain spectrum it doesn't mean there's no other eyes who can't see in a bigger spectrum.

But for sure the person with the limited view and spectrum of light will swear that everyone else is lying or not telling the truth because they can't see it themselves.

Be strong and of clear mind.

And one day you may realize it's not like we've been taught in school
But what you believe you see.
It's not once I see it then I believe it that mentality will never get you anywhere.

Just look at all this successful people most evermore say I saw it and believed at 1st in my mind then it became reality.
The same with the placebo effect people will say I saw it in my mind and believed it and then all my cancer was healed instantaneously.

These people are slowly getting a grip on how the universe really works.
So good luck in your study and may you be with the force
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28 Aug 2020 07:58 #354163 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic real force users

forceuser wrote: It's the same thing with eyesight there's a huge spectrum of light in the universe except our physical eyes for most people can only see in a certain spectrum it doesn't mean there's no other eyes who can't see in a bigger spectrum.

But for sure the person with the limited view and spectrum of light will swear that everyone else is lying or not telling the truth because they can't see it themselves.

I'm sorry, if you say you can see x-rays (as opposed to their decay products, before anyone points out that dead light receptors or Cherenkov radiation in the eye might well be perceived visually) or microwavees with your bare eyes it's not the sceptic's job to prove that you cannot. Nor is it unreasonable of them to not take you at your word but ask instead for any kind of evidence of your claim before they believe it. It's not a matter of them closing their mind against the possibility because they cannot see it and are philosophically committed to not learn new things. It's a matter of you making an outrageous claim and then wasting time that could be spent demonstrating its accuracy (or indeed your own sincerity, as that too becomes increasingly easy to question as said time waste progresses) on whining about how the oh-so-stubborn unbeliever is not buying it right off the bat.

And for your interest, vision is not magic, by the way. It's chemistry. Just like pretty much everything else your body does. Sure, some optic nerves and visual cortices are more sensitives than others on the fringes of the visible light spectrum, but we know what molecules actually serve to detect light in animal eyes and we can say with enormous confidence that there is no beast on earth that can see wavelengths of a millimetre nor a picometre, and we can be even more certain that no human can, if they are made of vaguely the same flesh and blood as the rest of us. If someone's faith demands of them that they deny our well studied understanding of nature (I hesitate to call it "reality" outright, philosophers can try and do that in my stead), that's fine, but let's not pretend like it's all a matter of perspective, opinion, or spiritual fortitude. One side is supported by mountains of consistent experimental data, the other is backed by anecdotes and cries over imagined bullying.


It's not once I see it then I believe it that mentality will never get you anywhere.

Actually, for once, I agree. Though for slightly different reasons. You take it further yet. To you it's "once I see it, not only can I believe it and more, but you can believe it, too" whereas to me it's "just because I see it doesn't mean it's there".


Just look at all this successful people most evermore say I saw it and believed at 1st in my mind then it became reality.

Well, first of all, that's an appeal to desires. Being successful is not necessarily a justifier for the respective person's belief. Tom Cruise is successful, does that make the claims of Scientology more likely to be correct than they'd be without his support? And this is all assuming there even is a correlation between believing nonsensical stuff or being entirely uncritical and unfiltering about incoming propositions and "success" by what ever metric. But in fact, we don't really have that, do we? What success do you have to show for your oh-so-open mind? In actuality countriest with the most magical thinking or religiosity tend to be the least prosperous countries as well, while places with high living standards turn out to be places with strong education. The most successful people are not the ones who waste the most time dreaming but the ones who recognize their talents early and learn to best exploit their own strengths or their peers' weaknesses. On that note, consider: Writing charismatically can be a strength. Wishful thinking can be a weakness. When in line to buy a book that tells you yet another "special secret the they don't want you to know", about how to achieve any amount of any success in life you wish, spend that minute you wait, perhaps, pondering, who is actually making the fame and fortune there?


The same with the placebo effect people will say I saw it in my mind and believed it and then all my cancer was healed instantaneously.

Yes, they sure say as much. Most times they don't show medical records, for some reason, though. Almost like they know it in their heart that they had cancer and they know it in their heart that they do no longer. But only in their hearts, never on a physician's report. Unless it's a very benign form of cancer known to go into remission spontaneously, in which case that'll be omitted from their recitation. That's assuming, of course, that they don't lie about ceasing to take medication. And in some cases you just curiously stop hearing any more updates about them a few months later, too.

At this point, quick PSA: Please, do not forego treatment of your cancer before carefully consulting with your physician. Bear in mind, please, that WebMD is not a substitute for said physician. Please, do not rely on the power of your mind over your body, prayer. meditation, the Force, the placebo effect, the Law of Attraction, remote healing, Reiki, Su Jok, homeopathic remedies, ancient [insert culture here] traditions/rituals, or quantum medicine in lieu of proper and professional medical treatment to relieve you or your loved ones of cancer or any other serious medical conditions they might suffer from or be at risk of. And in our times, please, wear masks in public, too, not for your own safety but for the safety of the people around you. The power of your belief or their belief, or even the combined power of both will not sufficiently protect them from contracting what you might unknowingly carry.


These people are slowly getting a grip on how the universe really works.

Maybe they are, maybe they are not. But seeing as their "grip on how the universe really works" hasn't grown much for the past three thousand years, while the "grip" of those who actually bother testing their ideas has exploded so much that the "these people" get to spread their woo across the globe within fractions of a second, by means of light rays nobody can see except imaginary people in your hypothetical, transmitted through autonomous and self-replenishing machines, that whizz around our planet at speeds that would burn them right up if they didn't happen to just be so high up that there is pretty much no more air in their way, yes, I do agree the pace at which they are getting a grip is very, very slow indeed.

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