Holocrons and the New Canon

Trisskar wrote: Gray is a Choice to do things your own way above School Rules. AKA your miscreants, Slack off's, rule breakers, gangsters, bullies.....so forth and so on....

People over dramatize this whole "Balance" Ideal thinking its some god send. Apparently its cool to be above the laws and rules

Oh come on Trisskar, you gotta admit that breaking a few rules and living outside anyone's preconceived notion of what your "supposed to be doing" is maybe a little bit of fun, right? :silly: :evil:

That doesn't necessarily make you a "gansta" - It might just make you a free spirited independent thinker. Its these sorts of people that blaze new trails into the unknown and, in our example here, find deeper meanings in The Force than any followed dogma or set of rules could ever hope to achieve.

You are right. However some of the "Gray" Jedi in fiction were indeed 'Gangsta' like. (And I do believe we are talking about fiction yes? )

In fiction "Gray Jedi" were Jedi who left the order and in the case of some, put their services to the sith. Just like everything its individual

Just because you tamper with the darkside dosn't mean you are wise or more balanced. Just means your tampering with the darkside.

These "Deeper Meanings" is purely personal not movement based

Yes Jedi outcasts may have followed this path but there are many other force sensitive groups outside the Jedi or the Sith that just walked the line between light and dark. The Je'daii being the most prominent but there were other groups as well like the Krath, sorcerers of Tund, Jal Shey, Baron Do Sages, Dagoyan Masters, Force Witches of Dathomir just to name a few. Many of these groups strive for a balanced view of the force.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Force Witches of Dathomir

Im sorry.....but you and I are going to have to dissagree on the view points here. Except for Je'daii all the groups you listed did not "Strive" for "Balance" Especially the witches of Dathomir who more like prefered to dominate than balance hahaha

LOL, I guess it depends on your view of "Balance". It is not synonymous with harmony. I think the Jedi are another example of a philosophy out of balance so far it becomes derogatory.

Only in one case of your list of schools. All the others were meerly force sensative groups doing their own thing their own way. Which has nothing to do with "Balance"


Jal Shey - Negotiators (Good debaters) Intellectual forsaking spiritual ideals for more logical pursuits <- Not balance

Krath, sorcerers of Tund - Sorcerers, deception, concealment. Outcasts of Pure Blooded Sith who prefered to do things their own way - Not balance

Baron Do Sages - Philisophical. They studied things more philisophicaly and allowed their students to pick and choose what they wanted. Some were more physical than others and for the longest time followed false idealogies. - Not Balance

Dagoyan Masters - Pacifist. They saught HARMONY of the universe. - Not Balance. (Balance and Harmony are two different things)

Do those things make them Gangsters though? While in some cases it may, I would say in others it does not. Its just each groups attempts to find an equilibrium in the force. And yes I would say the Je'daii were probably the most successful in that for the greatest amount of time.

In the end it was not their philosophy that destroyed them but uncontrolled deviation from their philosophies that caused the Force Wars in the first place. From that rose two separate and unbalanced factions in the Jedi and the Sith, thus creating division and the illusion of separateness where none was really ever meant to exist. It only follows that re-integration of these two factions into a single balanced state once again is the only thing that will bring harmony back to the force doesn't it? Not the domination of one faction over the other.

Kyrin.....You are taking 1 thing and forcing it into a galaxy full of unrelated things.

Back track.

I said that Grey Jedi were Jedi who disavowed Jedi Rules and that by doing so they had the potential of falling into a category, one such category was of a gangter practice in which they attempted to serve Sith against their Jedi Breatheran in some of the major wars.

That has nothing to do with Any other school that practices the force

That has nothing to do with the Gray Jedi who simply did their own thing (Such as Correllion Jedi or even Qui Gon Jin)

That has nothing to do with any of the points you have brought up so far because.....They are all unrelated to the subject I was referring to.

So to answer you current question

Do those things make them Gangsters though?

Of course not. Because I was not talking about them

Its just each groups attempts to find an equilibrium in the force

As I pointed out....these groups were not attempting to find any kind of balance or equilibrium or whatever you want to call it They were trying to do things their own way for their own gains. Simple as that.

And yes I would say the Je'daii were probably the most successful in that for the greatest amount of time.

Actually.....they died out rather quickly

It only follows that re-integration of these two factions into a single balanced state once again is the only thing that will bring harmony back to the force doesn't it?

No. Because the galaxy dosn't work like that. The only reason why Je'daii strived for a perfect balance was because the planet they lived on would have destroyed them if they didn't. Too much dark energy wrecked massive storms that would kill them all, too much lightside stagnation and equal death.

Living in this purpetual state of unrest between white and black is and was proven to be quite unhealthy.


Buuuuuut.....Im afraid you and I are getting way off topic here Perhaps we should have a admin split us....

LOL fair enough. I thought you were trying to include any non Jedi Force user in your gangsta analogy.
My mistake!

Although I still disagree with you on your last point. I think Tython was representative of the function of the Galaxy in general. It is a physical warning of the dangers of straying to far to the right or the left. Even so, as I think we have both said, balance does not equal harmony, it just equals balance. Balance is about denying neither side of our personality but embracing both equally. This is the best way to navigate those internal emotional storms that rage inside each of us. And in that, the Micro reflects the Macro. Harmony is about integrating those storms with your greater surroundings.

lol or maybe I'm waaaay overthinking all this!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: lol or maybe I'm waaaay overthinking all this!

Uuuum.....yes. You are the authors of these books were not trying to provide philosophical ideals. They were writing stories. Therefor

I think Tython was representative of the function of the Galaxy in general.

Tython was a planet. Nothing more or less. It was not meant to represent the galaxy at all haha And even in a philosophical sense....it is a very very poor way to expect anyone to live their lives. IMO and is in no way a "Better" practice as was originally suggested in Force Users comment

Grey Jedi (Of which he specifically asked about) were akin to drop outs and rule breakers. I specifically made these distinctions because real world Jedi tend to over fantasize the idea of using dark and lightside without understanding the repercussions of what that actually entails.

one thing I have noticed throughout the years and that is sometimes fact is Stranger Than Fiction or stories
just to lighten the mood I believe you are both right then my master said they both can't be right and then I replied yes you are right
enjoy today my friends

Trisskar wrote:
Grey Jedi (Of which he specifically asked about) were akin to drop outs and rule breakers. I specifically made these distinctions because real world Jedi tend to over fantasize the idea of using dark and lightside without understanding the repercussions of what that actually entails.

But is that a bad thing? Do you think the path of the Jedi is the only true path for a force user and all others are simply corruptions of that path or can there be multiple points of view all just as valid as the next? Just because a force user does not agree with the Jedi path (Even one that used to follow that path) I don't think it automatically makes them rule breakers and dropouts except from the point of view of the Jedi themselves.

From my point of view the path of the Grey is the more correct path because from that point of view the Jedi path is one of the denial of part of themselves and this is not a natural state to exist in. We each use the light side and the dark side of the force every single day whether we acknowledge that or not. I don't think anyone can reasonably deny that, so to then turn around and say that we don't or won't use one aspect of our nature seems ludicrous.

I think this goes for real life and the movies. This is the failure of the Jedi and the Sith and the very reason they have experienced so much personal conflict among their two factions. We can all pretend that we can separate the light from the dark and then call a distinction but in reality this is actually just an exercise in futility. Until we recognize that fact we only fight with ourselves.

Again....you are putting waaaaay too much into it

Qui Gon Jin - Is one of the leading examples that Gray Jedi use to validate their path. Why? Because he commonly broke the rules, rose up against the council decisions and did things his own way.

Mace Windu - Another famous Jedi with Gray like tendancies that Gray Jedi "Realists" practically adore. They adore him because he walks that thin line between light and dark and gets away with testing these boundaries. And when matters got tough, he took matters into his own hands (Which by the way killed him )

Jolee Bindo - Prime example of "Gray Jedi" in wookiepedia - Again, a Jedi who dropped out of the order, followed a cultish sect (Raven of all people) and eventually the Sith Empire. Not to mention a bit...cookoo in the head

Soooooo......Yes. It is reasonable to say that most if not all "Gray Jedi" were in fact. Drop outs and Rule Breakers.


No where in that conclusion did I ever insert my own, personal, realistic beliefs on Force Studies and Philosophical methods of living in today's world


I believe that there is no "Sides" in the force
I believe that there is no realistic means of living in some sort of "Balance" (If there are no sides what exactly are you balancing?)
I believe that there are plenty of times when the elite structures and rules of an order (Or *cough*Temple*cough*) are disruptive and limiting to certian individuals.
I believe in forging my own path and creating my own structures (Just Jedi)
I believe in striving for a Harmonious pressence with everything (Not just the force) around you


None of that. Has anything to do with Gray Jedi in fiction and the real fact that they were called "Gray Jedi" due to their actions of once being Jedi....then defaying said Jedi ways.

While I agree completely with your life philosophy in the fact that the Force has no sides, my point here is I think they are also trying to present the same philosophy from a movie context as well. I know that Lucas had a specific agenda in depicting a struggle between good and evil in stark contrast but I think, especially now that Disney has taken the reigns, they are getting away from that to present a reality in which the force really has no sides and the Jedi and the Sith just have yet to realize this.

As for my reading to much into these things, well isn't that why we are all here? lol. If we don't see the rabbit holes that are this mythology then we are just marking time in this place. In that respect I don't see how we can ever "read to much" into these things, but that's just me, hehe.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: While I agree completely with your life philosophy in the fact that the Force has no sides, my point here is I think they are also trying to present the same philosophy from a movie context as well. I know that Lucas had a specific agenda in depicting a struggle between good and evil in stark contrast but I think, especially now that Disney has taken the reigns, they are getting away from that to present a reality in which the force really has no sides and the Jedi and the Sith just have yet to realize this.

As for my reading to much into these things, well isn't that why we are all here? lol. If we don't see the rabbit holes that are this mythology then we are just marking time in this place. In that respect I don't see how we can ever "read to much" into these things, but that's just me, hehe.

Right but....maybe in its own thread? This was supposed to be about Holocrons in the new cannon

LOL agreed!
Good conversation though! Thanks!

Trisskar wrote: This was supposed to be about Holocrons in the new cannon

Oh good, I was about to ask about that, haha. We seem to have fallen off-track, I haven't heard much talk about holocrons. :laugh:

I'm still curious if they are made of/contain kyber, to attune to masters who may put their personalities into it for instructive purposes. It does seem like it would make sense, right?

Also, side-question, still about holocrons, but... how far do you guys suppose we'd be from something similar? Let's say an AI used for the purposes of teaching. Like Watson with a holographic body, maybe? Contained within a small, cubic, portable computer.

I suppose the battery issue would have to be taken care of first, but I could see a sort of holo-lens thing like they have for some tech being used, and then a mic and speakers for interface... though getting all the information on a hard drive may take another decade of getting high volumes of data into a compact space.

I've also been working on a personal project of video/audio clips from the movies and shows involving philosophical beliefs, as a sort of personal "Holocron." But I wonder if that could be expanded upon with... I dunno... actual philosophers or something... would require more tech than I have available, haha.

Xiam wrote: Also, side-question, still about holocrons, but... how far do you guys suppose we'd be from something similar? Let's say an AI used for the purposes of teaching. Like Watson with a holographic body, maybe? Contained within a small, cubic, portable computer.

We are actually not too far off.

There is a reason why Quartz Crystals is a #1 stone in just about any mystical practice old and new.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/data-saved-quartz-glass-might-last-300-million-years/

Trisskar wrote:

Xiam wrote: Also, side-question, still about holocrons, but... how far do you guys suppose we'd be from something similar? Let's say an AI used for the purposes of teaching. Like Watson with a holographic body, maybe? Contained within a small, cubic, portable computer.

We are actually not too far off.

There is a reason why Quartz Crystals is a #1 stone in just about any mystical practice old and new.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/data-saved-quartz-glass-might-last-300-million-years/

Almost sounds like I need to write up a new topic: "Is quartz kyber?"

Short thread. Answer: "No, it breaks easily, because it's glass." :laugh:

Xiam wrote: Almost sounds like I need to write up a new topic: "Is quartz kyber?"

Short thread. Answer: "No, it breaks easily, because it's glass." :laugh:

Meh....Beggers Can't be Choosers