Gisteron

I'm also in agreement with arcade and tzb.

Besides, I think the majority of the Temple members are studying the I.P., posting in their journals or doing apprentice or degree scheme exercises. If anyone (and there probably are a few) is posting stuff to sound quaint or cryptic, I would say they are the minority.

Gisteron wrote: [quote="scott777ab"
http://logical-critical-thinking.com/logic/logical-absolutes/

I having trouble following you. What are you saying, short version?

tzb wrote:

Arcade wrote: Most of us are here because we want to learn something about ourselves, others, and our connection to the Force.

Agreed.

I'm not sure I understand why people with the opposite opinion would continue to come here?

Really?

So we should only venture as far as our comfort zones?

I actually come here because it is opposite....No, not opposite, well, not always, of my opinion.

Jestor wrote:

Rickie The Grey wrote:

Ren wrote: Most conversations in this forum are popularity contests where the goal is to sound more appropriate, politically correct, mystical, spiritual, wise and whatnot. Rare are those who dare explore crazy ideas just or the sake of it.

Most? I don't think so. Most are decent enough people they want to learn and understand, though we are an eclectic group. Some people post for: shock, controversy, contrarian, argument, troll, to hear their own voice, to look smart or think their cleaver, some are all about themselves. I'd like to think this is a place for explorers of all types.

You know what, I was thinking about this...

I tell what I think, and Rickie tells what he thinks, and we compare...

We dont tear each others thoughts down, we talk up, and compare these things becasue people are more willing to share when you show interest, and have a common theme...

Where as GIsteron, Khaos, and others, only question, putting forth no real thoughts of their own....

Yes, they share, but mostly, they tear down... :pinch:

Again with this offering nothing that is my own....I do not sure what you mean by this as again, no one has put forth anything original here.

Temple of the Jedi Order, Jedi, Force, etc,etc...

Did you come up with that on your own?

No.

That is but the tip of the iceberg as well.

I have put forth what I think as much as anyone though.

It seems you want to "Talk each other up", more than ask questions, but that is simply your method of discovery, and doesnt apply to all.

I was taught to question, look at things, compare certainly, but here is the thing, we are different, and when I compare them, I disagree and so question.

Also, I have done no tearing.

I could show you a comparison if you would like, but be sure you want to see it and assure me of not getting banned by giving an example and I will show you how forums with a....Darker, theme actually tear into each other.

I walk on eggshells for you lot, just so I can get something out of this.

It is quite apparent that I do not always question, you need only review my posts for that.

Apparently, you are all so enlightened that you need not question, or God forbid, disagree.

Of course, thats one of the drawback of only discussing within common themes.

Its all too easy to stagnate.

Me?

I have loads of questions, and im sorry that I cannot simply accept "Thats just how I feel."

Thats not a reciprocal conversation.

Now was I raised to accept things at face value, or judge a book by its cover.

If something is torn down, its because it could be torn down.

Everyone quotes Bruce Lee.

Take what is useful, discard what is useless,etc,etc.

Well, it seems actually applying it causes a bit of a rankle.

Questions only tear away what shouldnt be there.

Like maggots only eating the dead flesh on someone and leaving the living flesh behind.

Or, if you need a Star Wars reference...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Taras-chi_%28tradition%29

Jestor wrote:
Yes, they share, but mostly, they tear down... :pinch: [/color]

I often find this done in a way that is unnecessarily harsh or confrontational... but, I sometimes wonder how much of it is just 'tearing down" for the sake of securing ones own feelings on your position, and how much is a misunderstanding around learning styles.

When I come across new concepts I find myself challenging and poking holes in them, its partially how I makes sense of things, and partially because I'm stubborn and am unable to accept new things until I've settled them in my mind.

I do try not to be an ass about it though.

On the "thats just how I feel" defense Khaos. Sometimes it just is, and often its because the person attempting to express it doesn't have any way of explaining it in a way that is quantifiable. I cant explain to you the way in which I feel I connect to the Force (or whatever you want to call it) because I have no way to adequately detail what it is like in a way that makes logical and/or scientific sense. But I am able to explain the sensation and the feeling and the things that result from it. Which is sadly pretty much all I have to go off.

but from where I sit, neither science and logic, nor belief and faith have enough language to explain everything satisfactorily.

but then what do I know I'm not a scientist or a priest!

What is this 'popular' thing, and how do I get some? Spreading money around is a good way usually but Ms Adder gets all mine... I hope I'm popular with her!!!

I think the difference is where the focus is, if its on 'measuring' others, or on 'exploring' their own thoughts/progress. If people were genuine about 'exploring' others they would not be so judgemental and derogatory, and if they were 'measuring' their own then they would be exposing themselves more fully then even those exploring their own thoughts. So looking at the patterns of communication maybe its easy to find motives, then the question can be why
:ohmy: :lol:

Sure, Khaos. You can question everything. And you should. We all should have a healthy skepticism about anything we read or hear. We should search for the deeper truth and hidden meanings. We should not stop at the surface. We should employ all that science and experience has to offer in our pursuit of truth.

There is a polite way to do it, however. Particularly in an open and inviting environment such as this one. A decidedly spiritual one, at that.

Allow me to quote from Wayne Brockriede's " Arguers As Lovers ".

"When the logician proclaims triumphantly, as a result of the way he orders his premises, that Socrates is mortal, he does not need to know anything about himself or his respondents (except that they are "rational" and will follow the rules) to know the conclusion is entailed by the premises. But when an arguer maintains a philosophic position, a scientific theory, or a political policy—in short, any substantive proposition—the co- arguer's response may be influenced by who he is, who the arguer is, and what their relationship is. Perhaps as good a way as any to distinguish the study of logic from the study of argument is to understand that logicians can safely ignore the influence of people on the transaction; arguers cannot."

You are clearly a student of logic and truth. You can use proofs from geometry and sciences to make a point. You can reference logical fallacies and demand factual evidence to cut down another's response. And you might be "right", but in doing so, you are also demonstrating an obvious lack of understanding as to what this environment is meant to foster among it's members.

You are trying to be a "logician" in a Temple full of "arguers". Most of us are not here to be "right", and we recognize that our conversations/debates/arguments are interactions between human beings, not equations to be solved.

You may deem this opinion of mine and the article above to be completely worthless, but that is what I love about this forum. You don't have to read it and you don't have to agree with it. You don't even have to acknowledge that my thoughts are worthy of sharing. None of us do, but most of us choose to. And if we choose not to, there is a simple solution that any of us can take. As George Carlin used to say, "if you don't like it, go the f%#k outside."

I choose to respect others here, yourself included, as human beings first and "debaters" much further down on the list. If I have learned even one small token of wisdom from someone here, they have added something to my experience of life, and "science" be damned, that is good enough for me. I respect your right as a person to disagree, and I fully expect that you will have more to teach me going forward.

I have grown over the time that I've been here. I've witnessed and have gotten criticisms and been questioned, of which some call "tearing down", and I would say that it has helped me grow even more than I would've if I were to have been "talked up". Talking up and tearing down; they both have their merit at certain times. I really like the tearing down bit because it calls us on our BS and enables us to think more critically about what it is we want to share or discuss, rather than sharing anything and everything, waiting for people to clap and sing and praise. Talking up, in my opinion, just gives boost to the ego, whereas tearing down humbles the ego and calls for deeper, more creative thinking. On the other hand, there is a time where talking up helps one to get out of a rut of despair and tearing down only worsens it. They each have their positive and negative aspects. A balance of each keeps us level-headed, in my opinion.

Brenna wrote:

ren wrote: behaving based on what may or may not be is in fact inherently bad.

Can you elaborate? I'm not sure I've understood.

Well in this instance, we're talking about whether god exists or not. People who follow rules/orders in order to get their reward, as history has numerously told us, are "bad". Whether they're nazi soldiers or simple employees protecting corporate interests over anything else... All of this for a paycheck. God's rules have lead to numerous conflicts and misery... All because people want to go to heaven... Similarly someone who thinks they cannot be published by god because god doesn't exist will do anything because they can... They are basing their life around what is essentially a guess.

I sometimes wonder how much of it is just 'tearing down" for the sake of securing ones own feelings on your position, and how much is a misunderstanding around learning styles.

When I come across new concepts I find myself challenging and poking holes in them, its partially how I makes sense of things, and partially because I'm stubborn and am unable to accept new things until I've settled them in my mind.

You've got to take things apart to see what they're made of...(said every scientist ever) But what's really interesting is to re-assemble them differently and see how that works out....