Gisteron

Gisteron can we start over please

I edited this post and put what was said formely in quote. All that below can be ignored, I wish to start over by asking questions and sicernly trying to understand your point of view.

So here is my first question in this restart.
Do you believe there is a god or not?
2nd part of that question: why do you believe so?



ALL THIS BELOW PLEASE IGNORE. IT REMAINS BECAUSE IT WAS SAID.

scott777ab wrote: Made this post to get off the other thread so it can stay on topic but we can discuss issues.

Gisteron wrote: Jestor, Philosofer, I apologize in advance. I'm sure if you read on you will understand at least the motive behind the following rant addressed at scott. I realize it is still off-topic and I kindly ask that it not be deemed as a display of disrespect for the thread at hand. Thank you for your understanding.

I hope that you will try to understand some of my points of view.

Gisteron wrote: No, I'm sorry, I won't have it said that I am unwilling or incapable of changing my mind.

No I believe you are capable, but not willing. I personally believe you may have changed your mind in the past which is all fine and dandy, but that is the past and has absolutely no bearing on the present. I personally get the vibes from you when you post in chat or in the forums that you have come to certain conclusions about life the universe and everything and now I personally see you as STUCK IN A RUT of belief about those conclusions. May I be wrong? Yes. But that is the way you totally come off. Every time we talk you are condescending to me, to the point I really don't believe a word you say whether it be true or false.

Gisteron wrote: I am a breathing, living and growing human being who has been both correct and incorrect in the past and had to and did change his mind over and over again both with witnesses on this very board and outside of it.

Really can you prove that you really even exist? How do you know that what you are experiencing is real and not just some computer generated world? PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE>>> IF NOTHING ELSE< ANSWER THIS ONE>

Gisteron wrote: Name me one piece of my reply that would display anything remotely contrary to that, and I shall concede that I'm a close-minded prick who just seeks fights for the fun of it. The only thing that makes you think that is that I dare to not see your flawless reasoning as you do.

I must ask why do you always want to fight with me? Why always disagree with me? Others say the burden of proof for God is on me, no its not. I've mentioned numerous times my evidence. ( THE UNIVERSE ). That is proof enough. Follow the logic of evolution and the big bang backwards, keep going back and back and back and back. Even for a cyclic universe, somewhere along the line the universe had to start. All circle's have a beginning but no end. I get that. Even a computer generated circle as a beginning and that is the programming code for the computer to make said circle. Likewise all dimensions and universes if you keep going back come from one original point of "SOMETHING." Yes I know the usual response is, WELL THEN WHERE DID GOD COME FROM? I have heard many times it be said, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Well that is what GOD is, pure energy. I do not believe in some being that most Christians portray. You ask how I know, I KNOW because I have seen and felt this energy while dead twice, and twice while meditating. I know it (GOD) to be real. I know it to be as real as the back of my hand. But I must still ask even myself how do I know this is not a computer generated simulation? I just know this is real, and not some matrix. There is no science behind that its just a knowing, and its by this same knowing, that mothers can KNOW that there child is in danger or hurt even when hundreds of miles seperate them, its this same knowing that lets me KNOW that God is real. Does this at all help those that are atheist and/or skeptics, no it does not. And I understand that. There is nothing I can say that will change the mind of an atheist. You have to experience GOD on your own in your own way.

Gisteron wrote: I do agree that it is pointless, since you "won't tell how you know", which sure raises the question of why you kindly posted in the first place if you don't care that anyone gives an excrement. Because I do care I hope to learn something but apparently since I'm not already with you on your pedistal it would somehow be beneath you to share your insights such that we ought climb towards you ourselves instead.

Its not about being on a pedestal, or even thinking that I am above you. Do I wish you have had the experiences that I have had. Yes I do, then you might understand what I say, and why I say what I say.

Gisteron wrote: Perhaps you have access to some information I have no access to.

That is probably true, and unfortunate. It is not that you have NO ACCESS, it is just that to access said information requires some suspension of disbelief, and I understand that is not easy. I do not fault you for this either, regardless of how much you think I may, I really do not.

Gisteron wrote: Perhaps you are more than the mere primate I and everybody else here is, and perhaps I am in no right to question anything you say and you are perfectly justified in smugly looking down at petty old inferior me.

There is that condescending speech of yours again.

Gisteron wrote: Now, look, you are free to be as arrogant and secretive as you like.

There is that condescending speech of yours again.

Gisteron wrote: If I had a kid and I wouldn't tell it that it ought not touch the hot stove, I would probably be a bad parent for not sharing my insights with somebody who quite clearly needs it (although the better analogy would be if the child asked me whether it could touch the stove and I'd say "I know the answer but you better find out yourself"), but I wouldn't be a criminal by any means unless I put its hand on that stove myself. Maybe in your world a good parent, friend or a good person in general wouldn't share such important information with his fellow people. I wouldn't understand, but then again, I am just another primate without your sources of knowledge, so I may be wrong in the end.

There is that condescending speech of yours again.

Gisteron wrote: But don't you ever dare again to imply I was intellectually dishonest and close-minded for that. I will have you talk to me in any tone of voice you deem appropriate (though I might not appreciate every single one), but there are things I will not have said about me and remain silent.

How about don't you ever dare tell me what I can or can not imply. I am a free agent and you have no right to tell me what I can or can not say. Just giving you a taste of your own medicine there, but the point is you really have no right to say I can't say what I wish.

(Condescending Comment Removed.)

Others say the burden of proof for God is on me, no its not. I've mentioned numerous times my evidence. ( THE UNIVERSE ). That is proof enough.

You are right Scott...

You do not have to prove that God exists to anyone but yourself... And if you have your evidence, good for you...

And to some, like me, who do not believe in God, we really dont care if you believe...

I cant prove Africa is where it is either, for those of you who wonder what is proveable... We take the words of others and that it exists...

Some people are so, um, unsure? wanting to believe? want to be convinced, that they place their burden on others... They want someone else to show them they are wrong, and its just not possible in some cases...

My advice, is to ask them to stop replying to your posts...

Rather than asking him for proof that what he believes doesnt exist, why not show him your evidence that it doesnt?

Lack of proof, is not a lack of existence... ONly a lack of proof...

We can probably not agree that sausage, pepperoni, and mushroom is the best pizza ever... Or that Smirnoff is the best vodka... But, I dont have to prove it to you, you may not agree on how I see the world, you only have to treat me with respect...

I cnat show you that pepperoni, sausage, and mushroom is the best, you just have to trust me...

I cant prove Africa is where it is either, for those of you who wonder what is proveable... We take the words of others and that it exists...

Actually, this is a bit of a stretch, as had I the money, I could fly you there.

I can show you video of what is going on there.

There is alot more to the proof Africa exists than others words for it.

There is a great deal of our history as well in dealing with Africa.

You can in fact prove where Africa is.

As for the burden of proof, well no, you dont have to prove anything, and yet....I think in a place that is a learning environment, spiritual or otherwise, it would be best if one is going to make claims of any kind that they are prepared to back it up with something.

Switching the burden of proof is a poor method of dealing with questions asked in the search to learn from what one themself has presented as fact no less, is a poor way to go about in any type of learning environment.

Switching the burden of proof is a poor method of dealing with questions asked in the search to learn from what one themself has presented as fact no less, is a poor way to go about in any type of learning environment.

Khaos

Proof? Facts? You not believe me doesn't mean I have to justify what I feel is right to you or anyone else.

The exchange of thoughts and ideas stimulates thinking and that is good. Thinking can be learning, spiritual or otherwise.

All differences aside, I actually enjoy the exchanges we are having. Thank you very much.

Actually, there is a case to be made that absense of evidence is indeed evidence of absense, but I don't think I need to make that case unless prompted. Jestor, the thing is that if you are making claims, the onus is on you to back them up (again, when prompted), as Khaos already said. Of course they may be true or false, but I will care what you believe only in so far as it affects what you do and I will care why you believe things because that may help me discover a truth I didn't know before.

As for the line you quoted, we have a name for the universe. It is "universe". If your reason to rename it to "god" is only so that you can smuggle in the word and claim god exists, you are doing our language a disservice and are begging for misunderstandings.

Anyway, neither of this is what I was asked, so I shall move on to address the original post.
Scott, you asked whether I believed there was a god or not. Now, there are two ways of interpreting that question. Judging by your subsequent question, it seems that my options are as follows:

- Either I believe there is a god, or
- I believe there is not a god.

I shall illustrate my answer with an analogy. Let's say I have a jar full with marbles. The exact number of marbles is either odd or it is even. Your question would be analogous to asking whether I believed it was odd or even. I cannot answer this. My answer is "neither". I don't believe the number is even, because nothing makes me think that. Neither does anything make me think that it is odd, however, so I cannot say I believe that either. In the same way, I don't beileve there is a god, and there are a number of gods I have reason to even believe don't exist, like the one version of Zeus that visibly and physically resides on mount Olympus or that is internally contradictory. At the same time however, I have no reason to actively believe that all and every god doesn't exist, so I don't believe that either.
I believe that the time to believe anything at all has come only when and no sooner than there is reason to believe the proposition. Now that reason may not be sufficient or watertight, which is why we always have to reexamine our own beliefs, but at the end of the day I cannot say I believe something and also mean it unless there was something, that, for better or worse, convinced me to some degree or another.

So the second part of your question remains unanswerable from a strictly semantical point of view since it relies on a dichotomy that isn't a given one. But I don't have to be strictly semantical here and may as well say, that the reason I disbelieve is that I have no reason to believe and I cannot make myself believe things because I deem that dishonest and counterproductive in any quest for truth.

Rickie The Grey wrote: Proof? Facts? You not believe me doesn't mean I have to justify what I feel is right to you or anyone else.

No, just the claims you make, at least when prompted to back them up.

The exchange of thoughts and ideas stimulates thinking and that is good. Thinking can be learning, spiritual or otherwise.

Things others say hardly make one rethink one's own ideas, unless one doesn't care about their merit. If one cares, the logic and evidence behind the ideas is what stimulates thinking and rethinking, or at the very least it does so way better than merely examining the ideas isolated to themselves. How you got to your conclusions is more useful to all of us than your conclusions alone. That's why some of us will ask for an argument or some evidence.

Proof? Facts? You not believe me doesn't mean I have to justify what I feel is right to you or anyone else.

The exchange of thoughts and ideas stimulates thinking and that is good. Thinking can be learning, spiritual or otherwise.

All differences aside, I actually enjoy the exchanges we are having. Thank you very much.

*Sigh*

I have already stated that you dont have to justify anything.

No one does.

However, in the exchange of thoughts and ideas, well, if your prepared to go no farther, deeper, etc into the thoughts you tend to exchange then there is no exchange.

You can say that everything is energy.

I can ask why, or how, you came to that conclusion.

I can perhaps offer some contrary, yet compelling evidence.

If your response is to simply say you dont have to justify yourself to me, well, the conversation is at an end.

This is a discussion forum, one that treads on what we think about many subjects.

If you plan to go no deeper than surface statements then the learning that can be gained from the exchanges, spiritual or otherwise, is stunted severely.

I dont have to do alot of things.

I want to.

Certainly, it makes the exchanges here richer if I am willing to "justify" myself.

However you are taking a defensive stance with that word.

I would say I am willing to explain my reasoning and how I came to my conclusions, and, in the spirit of interaction will ask how you came to yours so as to understand them better, you better, and perhaps, see if it is something I myself can adopt as a viable application.

Or perhaps I will find that it is not viable. or that something I thought is not, and it will be discarded.

So yes, I ask for you to "show your work" to enhance my understanding.

Not unlike a math teacher teaching a method of application.

I can learn to add by you showing me the process of coming to that conclusion, but if you just give a conclusion, an answer, I can learn only so much.

You can stimulate thoughts with the exchange of ideas, but that stimulation leads to questions. In the spirit of exchange I think it is highly beneficial to all to being able and willing to answer them, discuss them, test them, dissect them, and perhaps even defend them.

Gisteron wrote: How you got to your conclusions is more useful to all of us than your conclusions alone. That's why some of us will ask for an argument or some evidence.

Had I learned that at a much younger age how much time and money I would've saved.

Taking someone in authority on faith rather than asking questions...

A general question to everyone reading this... Why is it important that anyone else believes the same things you do or thinks about things in the same way?

Other people not agreeing with you shouldn't make what you believe to be true in your heart or mind any more or less real to you. If it does, and you're threatened by other people's comments about your beliefs, you may wish to reconsider them.

It's okay to concede that you see the world through different lenses. Your views and opinions have been well stated and acknowledging your differences won't make you seem weaker or any less right about what you believe.

Pepperoni, sausage, and mushroom. Or not. Pourquoi est-ce important?

Guys

If your thinking then you're changing and creating. If you are thinking about anything I've said then I am having an influence on you. OMG you might even have learned something. Like it or not.

We obviously don't think along the same lines or the same way. We're different. I don't need proof for everything and you do or at least it seems that way.

Don't think of this as criticism, challenge or who is right or wrong. I feel one way and you think another. Think and feeling are complemantary. I believe people need to do more thinking and feeling to better the world.

Some things can be known directly but have no evidence. If you haven't experienced this then you haven't. Some things can be understood without explanation and can't be explained, maybe never will be. Some people are short and some tall.

Some people connect with the: intangable, creative, imaginative, intuitive, unlearned and untaught. I try and I believe and feel (with no proof to offer) there is more and I desire to open my mind to the possibilities.

If you guys are engineers then you must be good ones.

This has been fun. Thanks

Peace