Fight the Disrespect from One by Disrespecting All?

As most of you know, I'm active duty US Military. I have also served for a year in the Dyess AFB Honor Guard. I take respect for the anthem and the flag very seriously.

I find kneeling for the anthem more respectful than not removing your hat during it. Or chatting, or any number of things. Kneeling is a form of ...submission? subservience? I mean, folks kneel before their gods in prayer! Now staying in the locker room during the anthem is another matter in my eyes.

But you said your main point was trading disrespect with disrespect. I've never found that to be a good way to resolve a conflict. However, intentions and perception can really muddy up the waters. I've been called disrespectful for putting my foot down and setting rules for my mother. Does it matter that I did it because the relationship we had was unhealthy for me and I was trying to set boundaries so we could grow a good one? Depends on who you ask.

Sam - this has been an excellent and constructive conversation and I've taken your points to heart as well. As an Eagle Scout and Marine, I am quite sure you understand the importance of the flag and anthem as symbols better than most. I also agree believe your sacrifices to defend this flag and nation grant you a special authority when calling these protests disrespectful. You have earned the right to say this without being attacked.

I tend to be a "big picture" type of guy, and so I miss the subtleties like the ones you mention here sometimes. No matter how much I defend these athletes, there will be those who disagree for very valid reasons. What I find most alarming is that we can't seem to have a reasonable dialogue as a society about it. The president should be able to say "I hear you and acknowledge your protest, but I wish it didn't disrespect our flag and anthem in the process." Protesters should be able to say "thank you for recognizing our right to free speech, and now we can stand and respect our anthem and flag as the conversation moves forward." Both sides should be saying "let's talk more about this." Both should also be condemning the idiots on both sides using this as a distraction from real issues or an excuse to be racist or elitist.

You've opened a dialogue among Jedi here that might lead to some more reasonable ways to address this divide. And I've learned a lot too.

I feel I need to clarify something I said in an earlier post.

When I said the flag "no more deserves respect than the red, white, and blue cloth it was made out of" what I meant was that a piece of cloth does not inherently deserve respect. Perhaps what it stands for as a symbol deserves respect, but symbols are just that: symbols. In my opinion, a symbol only "deserves" respect when what it stands for also deserves respect.

@Kit: thank you for contributing to this topic, it is helpful to see the opinions of our military women and men on this topic.

@SamThift: Same to you, basically. Only difference: thanks for starting this topic.

Here's another military person's viewpoint:

These people are exercising their right to protest. And no, they are not protesting the flag or the anthem. If you think that, then you're missing the point of what they're protesting. Yes, the protest is taking place during the anthem, but if you've taken the time to look into what they're trying to say, it's because the things they are protesting are going on in direct contradiction to the intent behind the anthem, and thus the intent behind what our country is meant to be. I fully support their protest. I fully support them using their national platform to bring attention to the matters that they are protesting.

Were it me, I probably wouldn't have chosen that platform, but that's just me, and that doesn't negate my support of their protest. Regardless of that point, I served to allow people to exercise their rights, and that is what these people are doing. Were I to have been deployed, and to have died during my service, I can think of no better way to honor my memory than through the exercise of the rights which I had died to protect.

Frankly, I find the fact that it's spread so rapidly through the rest of the sports community to be a bit uplifting.... The people who have been joining in since last week are doing so as a sign of solidarity, and solidarity is what our country needs right now.

Now, there is plenty about this entire scenario which I do find disrespectful, but kneeling during the anthem is not one of those things, not now that I understand, and can empathize with, the reasoning. And since some seem to want to make this about being respecting of military members, I can find acts related to this situation which I do find blatantly disrespectful to my time in the military, but frankly I see no point in drawing attention to those things, and them kneeling is not one of those things. Not by a long shot.

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Edit: This also just came through my newsfeed on FB, and from what I can tell, it's a verifiable story:

As a newly retired military member, served 30 years, I agree with Kit and Avalonslight. The military is sworn to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. That includes the First Amendment. I am not upset at all that people are using their freedom of speech.

Respect is an opinion. What one person finds disrespectful others will not. There will never be a 100% agreement on whether they are being respectful or disrespectful. Kneeling is a pretty respectful thing to do. Turning your back or sitting down, or not showing up for the national anthem may be considered more disrespectful.

Celebrities and entertainers that use their popularity influence to push personal agendas is a thin line. This protest is being done on the companies time/dime. The NFL does not pay an athlete to protest while they are working. They should do this on their own time. What does the NFL rules state on this? If it is that big of an issue or concern, the employer should fine, suspend or fire the individuals who do this on company time. Businesses can stop their sponsorship if they do not like the behaviour.

As for the spectators, if we disagree with this, than simply change the channel. Show your own personal protest by not supporting this business. Stop going to their movies, watching their programs/shows, or going to their concerts etc...

Karn wrote: Celebrities and entertainers that use their popularity influence to push personal agendas is a thin line.

The thing about this particular protest is that I don't think it is a "personal agenda." These men are trying to draw attention to a real problem that exists in our society and are silently and peacefully protesting the fact that the problem is, clearly, not being addressed.

This protest is being done on the companies time/dime. The NFL does not pay an athlete to protest while they are working. They should do this on their own time.

One could also argue they aren't being paid to listen to, or stand for, the national anthem either. They are being paid to play a game.

What does the NFL rules state on this? If it is that big of an issue or concern, the employer should fine, suspend or fire the individuals who do this on company time. Businesses can stop their sponsorship if they do not like the behaviour.

I highly doubt these players are contractually obligated to stand up for the national anthem. That's the thing about athletes playing professionally: they have a contract with specific obligations stated for both parties entering into the contract. Also, I think, so far, the NFL is mostly supporting its players in their right to do this kind of thing.

Personally I think professional athletes are outrageously and insultingly overpaid...but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

As for the spectators, if we disagree with this, than simply change the channel. Show your own personal protest by not supporting this business. Stop going to their movies, watching their programs/shows, or going to their concerts etc...

Honestly, I think anyone that disagrees with this form of peaceful protest/attempt to open a dialogue is probably either missing the point or is hazy on just what the first amendment means. But, by all means, boycott the NFL...no skin off my nose if you don't want to listen to the people drawing attention to serious problems and injustices in this country. Just don't expect me to agree with you.

For me it's a moot point because I don't generally pay much attention to the NFL anyway.

SamThift wrote: I imagine the sentiments here will be mixed, particularly given the international diversity this Temple has, and given the fact that not all of you are/were American Football fans of any sort...but I am somewhat curious as to what your take might be on the question of fighting the disrespect of one public figure, by having a couple hundred other public figures disrespect the entire nation?

For a little preview of my general take, see a below post I made elsewhere...

For other context, just Google anything with the words NFL and National Anthem together and you should get a smattering of takes on it from other perspectives.

*************

Dear NFL:

I make a concerted effort to keep out of these sorts of issues, but your actions this weekend have inspired me to take actions myself, and in ways I never would have otherwise.

I have been an NFL fan my whole life, and never once thought anything could ever change that.

Today, I am done.

I have zero respect for people that have zero respect. It's that simple. All politics aside. You want to be a role model, but are so quick to take offense and show all your fans that being disrespectful is appropriate behavior for a "professional" public figure?

How is it that you can kneel during my National Anthem, talking about inequality and complaining that the POTUS disrespected you, while you make hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars a year, then turn around and disrespect the ENTIRE country, to try and make your point about inequality and not wanting to be disrespected? The hypocrisy level here is unreal.

If you want people to listen to you, if you want to show unity and courage to stand up for what is right, then you should be standing taller than you ever have during the Star Spangled Banner, singing at the top of your lungs, draping your shoulders in red, white, and blue.

The American Flag and National Anthem are not symbols of the current administration, or representatives of a single issue you may disagree with. They are symbols of EVERYTHING that makes our country great. Including your opportunity to earn a ludicrous living doing something you love to do. Play the game. Don't abuse your platform. You can't fight disrespect from one by being disrespectful to all.

Not only will I no longer attend, watch, or listen to any of your games. I will not wear your gear. I will not watch any programming from any networks who air your disrespectful "protests", and I will not spend my money on any goods, services, or products of the companies that sponsor the NFL. Not a single dollar I make will go towards a revenue stream to pay you to kneel during the Star Spangled Banner.

You are professional athletes...for entertainment...get over yourself. I am over you.

Thanks for giving me my Sundays back.

A disgusted former fan.

My own choice
I live in America . I'm a Vet . I've been blasted blown up twice shot stabbed killed all for the sake of our country and it orders . Now, my own opinion... I fly my flag ( from camp cropper, no longer exist) with my and my wife's award bars on it pinned to the bottom. I display it as such during times of celebration and pride. My own pride and personal choices are there. I'm not a fan of football. I understand the whole ... gig . It's tough but regardless it seems to dominate slot of some focus and direction for some , not for all. Think on that for a bit if you like. It can and I have seen the sports industry "suggest apparel style eating places food drink watch and think. In this light I'm a fan of many things but not that. I like to think myself! It is to us , individuals to make our own choices if we like ... or not. I've seen two perfect strangers upset ( blind hate) at one another for a simple cheering choice or and of color of shirt. ( blew my mind)!

Your not alone friend. There are many things out there to Ike like about !
Keep seeking and you will find!

Ps what u gunna do on sundays now? We like to walk talk visit things like that, and it seems on our weekends like that ... we , as my family says , really never have enough time to ...be ... with each other . Happy seeking !

Good for you.

"Honestly, I think anyone that disagrees with this form of peaceful protest/attempt to open a dialogue is probably either missing the point or is hazy on just what the first amendment means. But, by all means, boycott the NFL...no skin off my nose if you don't want to listen to the people drawing attention to serious problems and injustices in this country. Just don't expect me to agree with you." -Lykeios

What serious problem are they drawing attention to? Their liberal agenda?

Maybe_the_sith_arent_so_bad wrote: "Honestly, I think anyone that disagrees with this form of peaceful protest/attempt to open a dialogue is probably either missing the point or is hazy on just what the first amendment means. But, by all means, boycott the NFL...no skin off my nose if you don't want to listen to the people drawing attention to serious problems and injustices in this country. Just don't expect me to agree with you." -Lykeios

What serious problem are they drawing attention to? Their liberal agenda?

Racial inequality, police brutality, systemic/institutional racism...y'know, just those kinds of things.

Also, are you implying being liberal is a "serious problem?"