Fight the Disrespect from One by Disrespecting All?

JLSpinner wrote: I find no disrespect with the kneeling. Yes it's during the national anthem, I understand. What value does a nation have if it doesn't value it's people? We all have the freedom of speech and expression in the US and it shouldn't be removed because it causes discomfort. Infact I encourage thoughts that cause discomfort.

^This. But I would add my opinion that engaging in peaceful protest to call attention to injustice both is, and shows the highest respect for, an American ideal. Dump the tea in Boston harbor to protest unfair taxation, and you're a patriot. Boycott the buses to protest racial inequality, and you're a civil rights icon. Take a knee to call attention to the unfair treatment of young men of color by police and prosecutors? Good on you.

And to the idea that persons with fame and/or notoriety somehow have less justification to engage in protest by virtue of their fame, I would argue that their fame might well give them a larger responsibility to call awareness to the issue. "Shut up and sing" doesn't sit well with me, never has. At best, maybe five people might ever hear anything I say about an important issue. If you got a million people watching, and you don't take the opportunity when moved to do so?

Oh yeah, one more thing: yesterday was the first time in recent memory that I saw a network actually cut away from their pre-game analysis to even broadcast the singing of the anthem. How are talking heads continuing to talk over the national anthem any less disrespectful than taking a knee?

It's probably intended to indicate the concept of escalation. They know who their audience is, and so if the requests of the cause are not met, then expect to see more protest infringe more and more into your life. As they have other avenues to protest.

And they could defend it by saying their protest is actually in line with the nations values, and that the audience needs to be informed that the 'flag has fallen', as a patriotic duty, that the nations values are being abandoned by the leadership (in their opinion).

So while it was a really respectful way to be disrespectful, lol, it is pushing some boundaries given they have other viable avenues of protest (given their profiles and wealth) and that the culture and climate of racism in the US is.... complex.

As long as it doesn't hurt anyone and was solemn I don't mind. But it sets a precedent to go off the rails, and I agree with others here, they are just sports people, give us a break..... if I want political advice I'll ask a Kardashian :sick:

Sam, I mean no offense here, but how do you know their intentions? Did you ask them? Did you read everyone's mind?

I ask this because we are all guilty of assuming intentions now and then in life. We project our own feelings onto others and infer nefarious motives.

I grew up every morning standing with my hand over my heart and reciting the pledge of allegiance and during assemblies and during football, wrestling and other sports throughout my life stood in honor of the flag of the United States of America. I don't hear that as often these days except special events I've been to. Every time, I do get that chance I stand and sing along and it brings tears to my eyes every time I love this country.

I understand the America that I grew up in is a far throw from the America that younger folks are living in today (I'm 31). Perhaps, that's a bias opinion it appears every generation thinks their gen. is better than the current growing up gen. My parents thought my gen. was very ungrateful (And we are), My grandparents generation thought their gen. was better than my parents and so on.

Perhaps also, to hold an attachment to a flag and country isn't right for a Jedi to hold because we speak of Universal perspectives not national but, what is good for all people and things in our world. However, this is one situation where I do not agree because I love this country and for what it has stood for and we've done good holding on to these certain core values. I think as time has gone on society has gone from being about the good of the people to the good of the individual. Those who knelled during it to me are not heroes it's rude and disrespectful. I know it some countries in the world you could be imprisoned for showing disrespect of this nature.

Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's"
My point being:

No matter where you are and this goes for Jedi as well. Honor those your around regardless you like or believe in it or not be respectful of others and their feelings. Just got with the flow.

Sven One wrote: I grew up every morning standing with my hand over my heart and reciting the pledge of allegiance and during assemblies and during football, wrestling and other sports throughout my life stood in honor of the flag of the United States of America. I don't hear that as often these days except special events I've been to. Every time, I do get that chance I stand and sing along and it brings tears to my eyes every time I love this country.

I understand the America that I grew up in is a far throw from the America that younger folks are living in today (I'm 31). Perhaps, that's a bias opinion it appears every generation thinks their gen. is better than the current growing up gen. My parents thought my gen. was very ungrateful (And we are), My grandparents generation thought their gen. was better than my parents and so on.

Perhaps also, to hold an attachment to a flag and country isn't right for a Jedi to hold because we speak of Universal perspectives not national but, what is good for all people and things in our world. However, this is one situation where I do not agree because I love this country and for what it has stood for and we've done good holding on to these certain core values. I think as time has gone on society has gone from being about the good of the people to the good of the individual. Those who knelled during it to me are not heroes it's rude and disrespectful. I know it some countries in the world you could be imprisoned for showing disrespect of this nature.

Jesus said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is God's"
My point being:

No matter where you are and this goes for Jedi as well. Honor those your around regardless you like or believe in it or not be respectful of others and their feelings. Just got with the flow.

For the most part I agree with you. However I encourage anyone to voice themselves against issues that they cannot ignore. Our blade defends the wicked. While these men probably aren't Jedi, they felt compelled enough to risk fine, penalty, and abuse to let everyone know that the status quo isn't good enough anymore. We can't ignore these issues and hope they go away. My view, any who.

Racism is a big deal to me, as I consider it one of the defining topics of the current era. I reject the marxist push for class warfare (aka group identity politics) but i also recognize the need to be honest about our society and our history, and be willing to admit our flaws and update our views and policies. I dont believe the police shootings should be viewed purely or even primarily as an issue of racism, but i acknowledge that blacks as a group are affected by it more than whites as a group, and i understand that to many black people it looks like "white america" really doesnt give a shit if they get murdered and beat, and unfairly arrested and convicted.
I dislike the move to politicize everything and turn everything into a group identity vs group identity campaign, and i dont absolve anyone of the consequences of their own bad decisions, but i also would like to see mainstream white americans be willing to say "ok i acknowledge there is a problem, lets fix it", rather than complaining about a slight (very slight) deviation in the normal pattern of their football game.

Police (and government generally, but its especially time to focus on the police) need to be held accountable when they mistreat american citizens, and no offense is meant to OP or anyone else but i think that's way more important than football.

Frankly, I don't see how Colin Kapaernick was being disrespectful at all. Honestly, taking a knee looks more "respectful" than standing. In any case, he didn't do what he did to "disrespect" the national anthem or the flag (which no more deserves respect than the red, white, and blue cloth it was made out of). He did it to bring attention to and protest the social injustices in this country.

Just because these people that are protesting police violence and the inequality that still runs rampant in this country have a few million dollars doesn't make them any less an American citizen with all the rights (and privileges) inherent in being such. For Zeus's sake Trump is a friggin BILLIONAIRE and apparently no one cares that he, in a public speech, referred to American citizens as "sons of bitches" and suggested that NFL teams (part of the private sector of the economy, which the president should have nothing to do with apart from trying to improve the economy anyway he or she can) fire them simply for exercising their constitutional right to protest. If anyone is being "disrespectful" or "unamerican" it is our "president."

Furthermore, the minute we make it illegal to protest the national anthem is the minute we invite in things like the Espionage act with its subsequent amendment the "Sedition act." The minute we say it is not OK for American citizens to protest or make a statement about anything is the minute we invite in abridgements to free speech and our other "unalienable" rights.

A. Colin Kaepernick raised awareness of an issue. He didn't create the issue. Using his fame to shine a light on injustice is no different than any other celebrity telling you to donate to a children's hospital or save the shivering and beaten animal by donating to PETA. Fame is a mouthpiece, but it still has to be used with an effective message to make a difference. His message was clearly received by many other members of the NFL who agree. It is Donald Trump who is off message and misusing his mouthpiece of fame and power. Ask yourself, who has the ability to launch nuclear weapons and who feels powerless even being approached by cops. Then ask yourself who should be held to the higher standard.

B. These players do not get invitations in the mail to join the NFL. They work their entire lives to reach that level and their families often make huge sacrifices in order to make the dream of playing at a professional level come true. It is unfair to discount the work they put in to gain the money and fame if you won't hold our "president" to that standard. He called these people "sons of bitches" on a Twitter account followed by millions. What good has Trump done to earn his billions? Inherit his daddy's money? Scam people? Declare bankruptcy? You want to point out hypocrisy? The president is slapping you in the face with it.

C. The flag and anthem represent a nation founded on a Constitution. The First Amendment of said Constitution is first for a reason. It guarantees freedom of SPEECH and the right to PEACEFUL protest. NFL players are exercising this right with RESPECT for the Constitution and the nation that was founded by it. To call their action disrespectful is to wholly misunderstand the founding principles of this nation. It is disrespectful to these individuals and every other American to imply that the Constitutionally guaranteed rights do not apply to them, or anyone else for that matter. Our military swears to protect and defend the Constitution, not decide who gets the benefit of it. Disagreement with the message of protest does not give anyone the right to deny the fundamental INALIENABLE rights. These were not granted by the government or a president. "Inalienable" means these rights are inherent and granted by a higher power and cannot be taken away by a misguided bafoon on social media.

D. I am an Eagle Scout and believe every strongly in treating the flag and our anthem with respect, but the hypocrisy of people complaining about players kneeling while eating a cheeseburger off of an American Flag paper plate in the parking lot of these games is way too obvious. How many people at home or in the bar get off the couch or bar stool during the anthem, if it is even played on TV at all? You know that trendy thing of displaying a huge flag over the field during the anthem? That is in direct violation of the code that designates proper display and use of the American Flag. Wearing it as a fashion statement is also against it. Saluting it out of uniform used to be against it until recently. Too many people think they know what is respectful and not without even researching the history or correct behavior concerning the flag. People are uninformed.

E. Multiple owners of NFL teams donated millions of dollars to Trump's campaign to give him a platform to call private citizens "sons of bitches" and then he called on them to deny the rights of players and for them to be be fired for no just cause at all, so let's not pretend that money or fame or power has ANYTHING to do with the protest being made here. It is about corrupt policy and the complete lack of civility in politics and law enforcement. It's people on the other side who have the money and power.

I appreciate the thoughts on the subject. I understand the underlying motives and issues as being valid and needing attention. I recognize the importance of the first amendment, and do not intend to suggest that my original post or others made in this thread, are directed at the actual policy questions, issues, or rights being exercised in the actions.

I personally do hold a higher affection for the United States Flag and the Star Spangled Banner, and do not view them as mere fabric and music. They are symbolic of something greater than an individual or single issue cause. I am aware that not everyone holds those symbols with the same regard, and to the extent that is their perceived "right" to express themselves in ways that seem unproductive to me, so be it. I am sure many of them would find my thoughts or actions to be unproductive too. Though it remains my right to be disgusted with their behavior.

To clarify/re-iterate: My primary point of contention, as suggested in the thread title, is more to question the appropriateness of the actual implied actions that they sought to fight disrespect by being disrespectful.

My mom would call that: Childish Response #4. "Well...Tommy was doing it too....!"


P.S. It was not the intent of my original post, or as far as I can tell,any of my follow-on responses, to discuss the merits of the underlying questions entirely. I have attempted to specifically keep the discussion geared towards how we handle our selves and whether the tit-for-tat actions were necessary, on either side for that matter. We could certainly discuss domestic policy and inequalities, as those are valid issues needing attention...but I feel those questions belong in a different thread.

Not, the tit for tat shouldn't be necessary. But for those involved, maybe they are running out of options. In a perfect world we could all talk rationally and find compromise. In this world sometimes you have to improvise.

JLSpinner wrote: Not, the tit for tat shouldn't be necessary. But for those involved, maybe they are running out of options. In a perfect world we could all talk rationally and find compromise. In this world sometimes you have to improvise.

The tactics on both sides just seem inadequate to actually produce any promising results. Both sides seem to have improvised on compulsion of the moment and allowed their emotions to take control...and as far as I can see, the knee-jerk feedback sentiments shows that both sides have effectively enlarged the divisive gap between the two sides, not narrowed it.

SamThift wrote: I appreciate the thoughts on the subject. I understand the underlying motives and issues as being valid and needing attention. I recognize the importance of the first amendment, and do not intend to suggest that my original post or others made in this thread, are directed at the actual policy questions, issues, or rights being exercised in the actions.

I personally do hold a higher affection for the United States Flag and the Star Spangled Banner, and do not view them as mere fabric and music. They are symbolic of something greater than an individual or single issue cause. I am aware that not everyone holds those symbols with the same regard, and to the extent that is their perceived "right" to express themselves in ways that seem unproductive to me, so be it. I am sure many of them would find my thoughts or actions to be unproductive too. Though it remains my right to be disgusted with their behavior.

To clarify/re-iterate: My primary point of contention, as suggested in the thread title, is more to question the appropriateness of the actual implied actions that they sought to fight disrespect by being disrespectful.

My mom would call that: Childish Response #4. "Well...Tommy was doing it too....!"


P.S. It was not the intent of my original post, or as far as I can tell,any of my follow-on responses, to discuss the merits of the underlying questions entirely. I have attempted to specifically keep the discussion geared towards how we handle our selves and whether the tit-for-tat actions were necessary, on either side for that matter. We could certainly discuss domestic policy and inequalities, as those are valid issues needing attention...but I feel those questions belong in a different thread.

The point is, some of us don't find kneeling during the national anthem to be disrespectful at all. (Unless I am alone in that, in which case, replace "some of us" with "I.")

Also, if you're going to look at it just from the "disrespect" angle then I'd argue it is actually those opposing this relatively simple protest movement who are being disrespectful, up to and including the president of this "great" nation.

EDIT: Also, I find great irony in the fact that you quote Theodore Roosevelt talking about action and doing something in your signature, but apparently oppose people doing something about institutionalized inequality.

I think at root of the issue is the idea of disrespect. Many people believe kneeling or sitting during the anthem is disrespectful, but that is an opinion, not a fact. For decades, football teams weren't even on the field during the anthem. Nobody complained then. It wasn't until the military asked them to be on the field and look patriotic during the anthem to encourage recruitment that they actually showed up. And not one player or coach has expressed a problem with the flag, the anthem, or the military. Not one. It isn't about disrespect. It's about being noticed, and it is working. Owners standing arm in arm with black and white players alike shows unity and a respect for each other as people. Teams staying in the locker room are making a unified front in the face of ignored grievances. What is disrespectful is that these types of protests have been going on for decades and yet the reasons for the protests still exist.

And one last point. If an ahole carrying a Nazi flag down public streets while wearing tactical gear and holding an assault rifle is respected as free speech, then we damn well better accept athletes peacefully kneeling, sitting, or even doing cartwheels whenever and for whatever reason. The double standard needs to stop.

Senan wrote: I think at root of the issue is the idea of disrespect. Many people believe kneeling or sitting during the anthem is disrespectful, but that is an opinion, not a fact. For decades, football teams weren't even on the field during the anthem. Nobody complained then. It wasn't until the military asked them to be on the field and look patriotic during the anthem to encourage recruitment that they actually showed up. And not one player or coach has expressed a problem with the flag, the anthem, or the military. Not one. It isn't about disrespect. It's about being noticed, and it is working. Owners standing arm in arm with black and white players alike shows unity and a respect for each other as people. Teams staying in the locker room are making a unified front in the face of ignored grievances. What is disrespectful is that these types of protests have been going on for decades and yet the reasons for the protests still exist.

And one last point. If an ahole carrying a Nazi flag down public streets while wearing tactical gear and holding an assault rifle is respected as free speech, then we damn well better accept athletes peacefully kneeling, sitting, or even doing cartwheels whenever and for whatever reason. The double standard needs to stop.

50 points to Gryffindor!

Senan wrote: I think at root of the issue is the idea of disrespect. Many people believe kneeling or sitting during the anthem is disrespectful, but that is an opinion, not a fact. For decades, football teams weren't even on the field during the anthem. Nobody complained then. It wasn't until the military asked them to be on the field and look patriotic during the anthem to encourage recruitment that they actually showed up. And not one player or coach has expressed a problem with the flag, the anthem, or the military. Not one. It isn't about disrespect. It's about being noticed, and it is working. Owners standing arm in arm with black and white players alike shows unity and a respect for each other as people. Teams staying in the locker room are making a unified front in the face of ignored grievances. What is disrespectful is that these types of protests have been going on for decades and yet the reasons for the protests still exist.

And one last point. If an ahole carrying a Nazi flag down public streets while wearing tactical gear and holding an assault rifle is respected as free speech, then we damn well better accept athletes peacefully kneeling, sitting, or even doing cartwheels whenever and for whatever reason. The double standard needs to stop.

Thank you, Senan, for saying so elegantly what I wish I could have expressed. Also, say it again, louder, for the folks in the back row.

Do you mind if I quote this post on a "Jedi/Force realist" blog I recently started? If you do, that's fine, but it is just so well-written. Edit: feel free to respond via PM if you prefer.

Lykeios wrote: The point is, some of us don't find kneeling during the national anthem to be disrespectful at all. (Unless I am alone in that, in which case, replace "some of us" with "I.")

Also, if you're going to look at it just from the "disrespect" angle then I'd argue it is actually those opposing this relatively simple protest movement who are being disrespectful, up to an including the president of this "great" nation.

That is a fair enough assessment. I acknowledged previously that the perspectives of whether or not the kneeling question was widely interpretable as disrespect or not...so I will concede on that point.

I attempted to make it evident that I found the inciting actions to be a clear case of disrespect, and I have not seen anything yet to argue against that.

It remains to me, however, that whether or not we individually see a specific action as disrespectful or not, the prevailing sentiment of the larger social institution identifies that standing for the National Anthem is appropriate, and not doing so is disrespectful. So when one chooses not to do so, for whatever reason, it is reasonable to assume that they understand the perception of being disrespectful will immediately follow.

Consider a different set of circumstances. I have been known to have a rather foul mouth. I do not use what society terms as "profane" or "vulgar" language in derogatory or attacking ways, but when frustration reaches certain levels, I am apt to drop F-bombs and the like. Free speech suggests that I should be able to use such language in any way, shape, or form, as a constitutionally protected expression. However, there are innumerable social settings where such language is heavily frowned upon, and quite inappropriate. Schools and churches are one, most private businesses do not appreciate customers or clients using strong language in their establishments, and my workplace would certainly not appreciate my use of such language we handling our clientele base.

Though, if someone in an unrelated field or industry, or fragment of our society, were to come to me using strong language. Would it then be acceptable for me to return the use of such language to show my displeasure in them using it? If I were fired for a profane tirade at work, would I have valid standings upon which to sue for wrongful termination under my First Amendment rights?

Do you see where I am trying to go with this?

SamThift wrote:

Lykeios wrote: The point is, some of us don't find kneeling during the national anthem to be disrespectful at all. (Unless I am alone in that, in which case, replace "some of us" with "I.")

Also, if you're going to look at it just from the "disrespect" angle then I'd argue it is actually those opposing this relatively simple protest movement who are being disrespectful, up to an including the president of this "great" nation.

That is a fair enough assessment. I acknowledged previously that the perspectives of whether or not the kneeling question was widely interpretable as disrespect or not...so I will concede on that point.

I attempted to make it evident that I found the inciting actions to be a clear case of disrespect, and I have not seen anything yet to argue against that.

It remains to me, however, that whether or not we individually see a specific action as disrespectful or not, the prevailing sentiment of the larger social institution identifies that standing for the National Anthem is appropriate, and not doing so is disrespectful. So when one chooses not to do so, for whatever reason, it is reasonable to assume that they understand the perception of being disrespectful will immediately follow.

Consider a different set of circumstances. I have been known to have a rather foul mouth. I do not use what society terms as "profane" or "vulgar" language in derogatory or attacking ways, but when frustration reaches certain levels, I am apt to drop F-bombs and the like. Free speech suggests that I should be able to use such language in any way, shape, or form, as a constitutionally protected expression. However, there are innumerable social settings where such language is heavily frowned upon, and quite inappropriate. Schools and churches are one, most private businesses do not appreciate customers or clients using strong language in their establishments, and my workplace would certainly not appreciate my use of such language we handling our clientele base.

Though, if someone in an unrelated field or industry, or fragment of our society, were to come to me using strong language. Would it then be acceptable for me to return the use of such language to show my displeasure in them using it? If I were fired for a profane tirade at work, would I have valid standings upon which to sue for wrongful termination under my First Amendment rights?

"The larger social institution" is not the government or the Constitution. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech..." Seems fairly simple to me. What is socially acceptable does not (or, at least, should not) define our legal system.

Do you see where I am trying to go with this?

Yes, I do. And it is, potentially, a very slippery slope.

Senan wrote: I think at root of the issue is the idea of disrespect. Many people believe kneeling or sitting during the anthem is disrespectful, but that is an opinion, not a fact. For decades, football teams weren't even on the field during the anthem. Nobody complained then. It wasn't until the military asked them to be on the field and look patriotic during the anthem to encourage recruitment that they actually showed up. And not one player or coach has expressed a problem with the flag, the anthem, or the military. Not one. It isn't about disrespect. It's about being noticed, and it is working. Owners standing arm in arm with black and white players alike shows unity and a respect for each other as people. Teams staying in the locker room are making a unified front in the face of ignored grievances. What is disrespectful is that these types of protests have been going on for decades and yet the reasons for the protests still exist.

And one last point. If an ahole carrying a Nazi flag down public streets while wearing tactical gear and holding an assault rifle is respected as free speech, then we damn well better accept athletes peacefully kneeling, sitting, or even doing cartwheels whenever and for whatever reason. The double standard needs to stop.

Senan...as always...you do certainly present valid points and great illustration. It may seem like back-pedaling on my part at this point, but your latest example in the second paragraph here does offer a bit of perspective to where we assign issue and where we reserve it.

I hope we have found the discussion here to be constructive. I have enjoyed it. I have tried to keep the questions on track to what I was attempting to discover.

In the interest of furthering my own development and hopefully providing opportunities for others to review some of the questions here for themselves, while gathering a collective analysis of the issue, I would deem the general point of the thread (whether I would have foretold the outcome to be such or not) as a relative success.

As an Eagle Scout myself, and a former Marine, I have always had an appreciation for the symbols of our nation, but also take pride in the personal efforts, sacrifice, and harms I put myself through to ensure the ability of my fellow Americans to enjoy the quality of life we have, and the full protections of our laws, even when their constitutional and inherent rights in various areas are disagreeable to me personally.

Where at the outset of my sentiments read through my original post appear to have been mostly construed as an attitude of me attacking what I found to be blatant disrespect...I was not attempting to convey any notion that I felt the disrespect to be punishable, or criminal, or illegal, or anything of the sort...but merely posited whether it was an appropriate response to the comments which led to the most recent situation.

With your most recent illustration, I find the disrespect question to be relatively settled, and accept that while not the best method, or one I may have chosen to employ, it was clearly an effective method, and well within their bounds.

I never quite brought up the specifics of the "he said/she said" things, because I did not want this to devolve into an attack on either position...but in reality, given the specific comments made in the subject speech and subsequent "tweets"...I do not see any other actions the players COULD have taken, except to kneel during the Anthem. In the end, I suppose that sometimes our actions are results of circumstances we do not have control over, and while not always the BEST option at the moment, it may be the only option, whether we like it or not.

So I leave the thread in the hands of any other further thoughts, but consider these to be my closing sentiments. I truly appreciate the discussion from all involved. It was helpful to me personally.

Police are allowed to abuse and murder American citizens with impunity: I consider that to be much more disrespectful than kneeling during the anthem.

I understand where youre coming crom OP, but id say its a matter of picking the more important battle. Feeling that the anthem protest is disrespectful is a fair and understandable position, but id say if look at the bigger picture, its significantly less important than the issues behind the protests (well some are just dojng it to say FU to Trump)

And id also say that kneeling is a much better form of protest than looting and rioting. This is actually the kind of protest people can and maybe should respect, as opposed to breaking windows and setting things on fire. Its not destructive or really disruptive, and its coming from people we recognize as being important to our own lives (if youre watching football and youre a big fan of it then you might feel the players are important anyway).

Rather than taking this as a cue to feel insulted, maybe we should take it as a cue to say "huh, perhaps i need to be more willing to listen"?

Feel free to repost my stuff wherever, Lykeios. I'm an open book. Thank you for the compliment as well.