The Man Thread: a discussion (and celebration) of masculinity

This thread lasted 10 days.

Doesn't seem like a long time to ponder and discuss a subject that has such an impact on almost everyone, one way or another.

My wife often says to me "You're a good man"

Which is interesting, because to most people I'm an incorrigible bastard.

It's hard to be a good person, especially to many people, because we are fickle with our heroes.

Anyway, where I was thinking with this was that part of the Masculine story (myth, if you will) is Sacrifice. We want Men to sacrifice themselves.

I couldn't find a clip on youtube, but as per The Magnificent Seven, once our manly men cowboys have given their time (and lives) to protect a village that is not their own -
"The Old Man was right. Only the farmers won. We lost. We'll always lose."

These are the Men, the Heroes, they lost, but at the end of the movie, we want to be more like them, not like the farmers.

Now this is fine and dandy, but sacrifice is a hard sell, we're all a bit more cynical now, we're not sure dying for honor and family is all it is cracked up to be...men want to have fun now, they want pretty things, they want smooth skin, and good looking shoes, and drugs and so on and so forth. We don't honor these men so much, we question their masculinity, we call their question into identity.

Some of them embrace it, and call the stoic "man" of "old" a neanderthal or chauvinist. Much is lost in translation, and in the war for identity (which, by it's nature, must paint your in group as the Correct way, and any alternatives as flawed in some fashion)

I've forgotten what tidy conclusion I had for this. Time for coffee.

After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

chaostheory95 wrote: After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

I think that's the idea. Becoming a man is a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood!

I truly believe that's one of the reasons we have so many 'man-children" in my generation. Our society has largely lost the rite of passage to manhood.

For women, it's automatic. Menstruation signals the transition from girlhood to womanhood. But what is there for boys?

Back in the day, there was some kind of ritual - the first hunt, start of an apprenticeship, or somesuch, often with a celebration. Then, the new man was expected to take on the responsibilities of man of the tribe/society.

I feel bad for today's boys who don't have any clear instructions for manhood. And so, I am thankful for the men who guide our generation's lost boys on an individual basis, as society has fallen short.

The difference between a child and a man is responsibility. A man should be responsible for his actions and their consequences, for your life and the impact that life has on society at large. As a man lac of knowledge no longer is an acceptable excuse thus a man should be in a constant state of learning to do his duty properly. And also should be responsible for his lack of action.

Leah Starspectre wrote:

chaostheory95 wrote: After reading the poem, I believe that it is more about guiding a child through a journey of personal growth to transition as an adult. Throughout the poem Kipling repeats

if you can...

which then culminates at the end by saying at the end that if you can do all of these then the earth will be yours.

I think that's the idea. Becoming a man is a rite of passage from childhood to adulthood!

I truly believe that's one of the reasons we have so many 'man-children" in my generation. Our society has largely lost the rite of passage to manhood.

For women, it's automatic. Menstruation signals the transition from girlhood to womanhood. But what is there for boys?

Back in the day, there was some kind of ritual - the first hunt, start of an apprenticeship, or somesuch, often with a celebration. Then, the new man was expected to take on the responsibilities of man of the tribe/society.

I feel bad for today's boys who don't have any clear instructions for manhood. And so, I am thankful for the men who guide our generation's lost boys on an individual basis, as society has fallen short.

Don't feel bad, its probably not what is going on IMO, as we do already have a serious rite. It is not a small thing to suddenly be crazy horny 24/7, but the kicker is having to restrain it..... for that can make blokes feel owed if they let it, leading to possessiveness, resentment and other dare I say toxic behaviors. But it is ongoing through life, so the way its handled can represent a lifelong attribute of ones psychology, IMO. The rite is the onset and how it ends up being handled. Too many puns....

So I think what is happening is as each generation gets a little bit more coddled then the last, we see a steady increase in both varieties of adult babies - but when you add over-coddling onto a bloke who gets twisted up about societies restrictions on his sex drive, he blames others eg society or women etc. Of course that argument makes superficial sense, but I think it just part of trying to create a micro-society where they can unravel that twist a bit. Of course in the old days they'd just go out raping n piliging, owning harems or take the closest unguarded skirt when it pleased them! Be their true self haha. Though its not their true selves as such, but pent up anxiety about it. So today these male adult babies seem to tend towards manipulation, limp wrested domination and complaining. Of course under-coddled twisted blokes go the other way, with the same foundations spinning more into aggressiveness and volatility. Shared attributes tbetween soft twisted and hard twisted seem to be lower trustworthiness and lots of lies, ie fake, as a result of letting sexual restraint twist them up. But for the vast majority of blokes intrinsic to having restraint is not letting it show, talk about it, or even acknowledge it. It appears if many are not true to their nature then they will seek to make others pay for it, eventually either slowly and quiet, or dramatically and fast. Better options are to find a way to live with its nature in a positive way, or go deeper to align with its essence as manifestation, and instead don't be twisted up about... don't let it shape oneself.

So not only do blokes have a right of passage, but it's one which defines their whole path as adults, unless they (here I go again) 'man up' and 'clean their act up'. Unfortunately for society, sociopaths excel at manipulation and so coming out of a patriarchal age the twisted male often is comfortable enough with what they can 'construct' to bother bettering themselves.