The Man Thread: a discussion (and celebration) of masculinity

If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: ‘Hold on!’

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son!

Rudyard Kipling

My father taught me that the difference between men and women was the organs and the "wo."

You have strong men and women, others who are not, you have those who are reliable in some ways and those who are not. You have good providers and those who are not. Many of these items may not be that thing they do well at all times, many of these they do well only in some ways.

At the end of the day, my father taught me that your deeds and actions are more important than your sex. As a result I expect everyone to be honest, hard working, reliable, good role models, and so on.

As far as I am concerned, if you are overly concerned about "being a man" then you have completely missed the point.

Thanks for your contribution. Despite my next comment, i often agee with and enjoy your posts.

Now that the obligatory feminist rhetoric has been articulated, i request future posters (if here are any lol) to not derail the thread with that kind of nonsense. If youre not willing to respect the theme of the topic, please feel free not to post anything at all.

I mentioned this was also a celebration lf masculinity...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6__QYkV_qs

I’m often dont do the label thing. It helps my practice. With self responsibility, for me , there can be few to blame.
On the topic: I won’t ever be the person to stand in any ones way and not encourage some one to stand. Not my cup of tea. I will say this - faithfulness can be taught by any gender as can any virtue we seek no matter if we call them masculine or feminine- - I won’t argue ever or make an effort to about this subject as it is a very real subject alive today. Thank you for it here.
Which virtues are gender specific? Love ? Faithfulness -? Responsibility ? Kindness ? Discussing really not arguing.
Growing up I’ve learned many versions of love hate and a whole lot of difrent “terms” that are being used today but to me - some times only to me - it seems people wanna fight and argue- some labels have that effect. They don’t have to but this is the really real world . I know I learned a lot of virtue from - not so common labels myself. Happy seeking friends and I hope in our balance of life and things we even find a balance with this . It’s possible. I stop saying be a man and the word sissy and things of that nature and started using real words like ... can u treat another human like a human.? Can u give respect when NOT asked for? Can faithfulness dwell rather then laziness ... not who’s being a man - who’s showing up , who can I trust , who’s on one - whos work ethic is golden as opposed to the not so golden. I found when applied like this : that argument ( for me) fades fast.

I have answered your questions that you presented.
Specifically: "What were you taught, explicity and implicitly about what it mean to be a man? Where do you feel youve done well and where do you think you could be doing better?

Is there a difference between being a good man and being a good person? If so, what is it?"

As a male of the species, as a son, as a former U.S. Marine (one of those super duper "manly" branches), and as a father, I have given my response to your questions. I elect not to celebrate something that has little appreciable value, or to put it the way my GySgt said it "If you are concerned about being a man, then you aren't a man."

Nakis wrote: I elect not to celebrate something that has little appreciable value

Cool. Goodbye.

It's lunch time now, I'm hoping to reply to this when I am feeling more at leisure this afternoon.

I wonder where the thread will be then.

I'm not sure why some people feel masculinity has to be a cuss word or immediately coincide with toxic masculinity. Ob1 has clearly indicated that he already knows that men and women can be equal, do the same things, and have success. That's not the point.

What were you taught, explicity and implicitly about what it mean to be a man? Where do you feel youve done well and where do you think you could be doing better?

I was taught to be a man by the media. And, that's the worst education I think I could find. My dad didn't know how to teach me to be a man. I wasn't interested in sports, so I think he felt like he didn't know how to talk to me. Because of that lack of connection, I didn't know how to talk to him either. I had to learn from elsewhere. This led to me learning to be a man from the movies and TV shows. That led to a pretty toxic view of manhood.

When I got to college, I stopped my toxic behavior. I learned to be respectful towards women (and other men). I learned to hold myself to a higher standard. A lot of that came from changing my media diet. I watched progressive men doing progressively masculine things. I saw people fighting gender stereotypes, and that was really cool. I realized that "macho" doesn't equal "masculine".

Funny enough, that was one of the first times I felt like I could be a masculine person. I just keep remembering this conversation I had with my then-girlfriend in high school... I told her that I didn't think I could have sex with her because I wasn't "manly" enough. Like, I couldn't take care of her in a masculine way because I didn't know how to express that part of myself. That should give you a window into the toxic environment I had myself in.

Is there a difference between being a good man and being a good person? If so, what is it?

No. There is not.

Are there any lessons you wish you could send back in time to your younger self or to the boys and younger men of today?

Being a man has nothing to do with "what" you do, it has everything to do with your "why" and your "how". Have a heart filled with boundless compassion, and it will be honorable. That will lead to right action. Masculinity is the courage to exist in the wild and be loving and to be loved.

What about males who dont fit the traditional images of masculinity, such as those who are gay or trans, or even those who are just not generally very competitive or athletic or “masculine”?

I think my definition fits here too. Let's break it down...
Masculinity has three parts to it: COURAGE, LOVE, and BE LOVED.
Courage means that you face fear every day.
Love means to give and show compassion every day.
To be loved means to accept the love that people show you and love yourself too.

Connor: that was an awesome post, man, thank you.

JamesSand wrote: It's lunch time now, I'm hoping to reply to this when I am feeling more at leisure this afternoon.

I wonder where the thread will be then.

Not much further than it was when you posted this, i suspect. Maybe we should talk about how masculinity is being villified, instead? As you can tell from the first replies, its a violation of the current group-think to suggest that masculinity could be a GOOD thing. Even some of the clergy will try to shame a person into silence for suggesting we could (or SHOULD) be proud to be men, or believe that “being a man” could even mean anything. So people are afraid. Masculinity is supposed to be “toxic” but im quite confident that if i had titled this thread “i am woman, hear me roar” people would be tripping over themselves to say something positive about womanhood and femininity.

Oh well. People, lol