RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

Br. John wrote:

We are a church and have clergy.

A commissioned minister is a person who is not full time clergy and does not have duties or responsibilities of any continuing nature. We don’t have any of these and if and when we do it would be for a member who just wanted to conduct a wedding for a friend or other one time service and that’s it. If another occasion comes then they get another commission for the specific service.

Licensed ministers are those licensed by the church as full time clergy during good behavior (no time limit) and they have a higher duty of service and responsibilities. They can conduce weddings and all other ceremonies except regular spiritual counseling and or ‘confessions’ protected under state law as privileged communications.

These two functions are where we cross into legal territory. Authorized ministers are exempt from counseling licenses and can be told things in confidence which is a privileged communication and the minister cannot be compelled to repeat them.

A license can be revoked at any time when it’s in the best interest of The Order like if someone lied on their application or got the license just for a joke or for abusing the power etc.

A Whateveryoucallit has the same powers as a licensed minister but they are ordained and its permanent – no take backs. For bad behavior such and one can be forbidden from exercising their powers under penalty of expulsion from The Order.

A Whoeveryoucallit is ordained and in addition to all the powers of a minister can help folks with continuing spiritual counseling and hear a confidence protected by law. By now you see why a license is so easy to get and it’s only after a person is comfortable in the clergy and proven themselves that we give them powers that can harm people.

All of these folks can just be called Rev. as a matter of common etiquette in a formal setting.

The Wheneveryouareit has all the powers of the Whoeveryoucallit and can license and ordain.

Our clergy are the servants not the masters of The Order.

This is an exciting and well mannered discussion and it’s great. I unpublished but did not delete the Sith post as garbage. A post that says nothing but “George is a Dark Lord and smells like an outhouse” or “that Jedi bitch used her powers to make me pee myself” should not even get the dignity of an answer. Nobody’s running around censoring here and if we do remove something we keep a copy. Debate is always welcome and garbage goes in the trash double bagged.

I’m going to quit while I’m ahead and see what commentary comes along.

Br. John

Thank you Br. John. This is why i keep saying it is seperate. This is also why I keep saying that designation as a Jedi does not denote responsibility as a Clergy. Does that make more sense now? am I lost?lol

Nobody is lost we're just finding our way;) .

Br. John

p.s. I don't think it's a big deal for Master Dunn to set up a poll. He has his family and business to run so it's just a matter of time.

If it must change, I go with Rev. Justice's layout.

Br. John wrote:

Whiteknight wrote:

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Are you offering to help with this committee?

Br. John

Are you suggesting that you are going to create a constitution commitee?

I think one important thing which we should not forget, especially in making such decisions, is the Force. We should put our trust in the Force and listen to its promtings. Although I am happy with the way things are at the moment, I trust the Force that the right thing will come out for us.

Our Articles of Incorporation are our Constitution but we don't have any significant ByLaws. If the members are interested in making some serious ByLaws we can have a committee and I have outlines.

Br. John

Where can these articles of Incorporation be found? I've looked and can't find them...I may be blind...forgive me if this is the case...

These are our Articles Of Incorporation.

Br. John

That is not neccesarily a constitution in which it doesn't set out any rules or regulations for the workings of the Order.

I know but when you have a corporation you use ByLaws instead of a constitution.

Br. John

Twsoundsoff wrote:

Br. Shaun wrote:

Hi, this whole ranking thing, is somewhat tiresome, and we appear to have raped and pillaged the Catolic faith for their titles, I could be wrong, but people are running around with \"Rankings\" of Bishop, or Monsignor. Why not create a generic brand for our titles. Initiate, for those who have yet to find a Master, Apprentice for those who have a Master, Knight for those who have completed their training, and then Master for those that have taken and completed the training of an Apprentice? Why do we have to take the titles from other religions when we are supposed to be a separate entity from other religions?
Just a thought.

Those rankings are the ones used to designate our development as Jedi. This discussion is regarding that of CLERGY.

Alright then, since we're discussing the Clergy, how about this, Initiate-Cleric, Apprentice-Cleric, Knight-Cleric, Master-Cleric. Do we really need more than that? I mean seriously, we're not all Catholics, and some people like myself, took this religion being that it was fresh, a change of pace from the others, yet here we still are, taking the titles they give to their Clergy, and applying them to ourselves. Those titles are not original, and not unique, and I feel that that is what Jediism is, unique, so we need something a little more original, even if the originality is in that the titles we use are the generics like Cleric.

Twsoundsoff wrote:

Br. Shaun wrote:

Hi, this whole ranking thing, is somewhat tiresome, and we appear to have raped and pillaged the Catolic faith for their titles, I could be wrong, but people are running around with \"Rankings\" of Bishop, or Monsignor. Why not create a generic brand for our titles. Initiate, for those who have yet to find a Master, Apprentice for those who have a Master, Knight for those who have completed their training, and then Master for those that have taken and completed the training of an Apprentice? Why do we have to take the titles from other religions when we are supposed to be a separate entity from other religions?
Just a thought.

Those rankings are the ones used to designate our development as Jedi. This discussion is regarding that of CLERGY.

Alright then, since we're discussing the Clergy, how about this, Initiate-Cleric, Apprentice-Cleric, Knight-Cleric, Master-Cleric. Do we really need more than that? I mean seriously, we're not all Catholics, and some people like myself, took this religion being that it was fresh, a change of pace from the others, yet here we still are, taking the titles they give to their Clergy, and applying them to ourselves. Those titles are not original, and not unique, and I feel that that is what Jediism is, unique, so we need something a little more original, even if the originality is in that the titles we use are the generics like Cleric.

Br. Shaun wrote:

Twsoundsoff wrote:

Br. Shaun wrote:

Hi, this whole ranking thing, is somewhat tiresome, and we appear to have raped and pillaged the Catolic faith for their titles, I could be wrong, but people are running around with \"Rankings\" of Bishop, or Monsignor. Why not create a generic brand for our titles. Initiate, for those who have yet to find a Master, Apprentice for those who have a Master, Knight for those who have completed their training, and then Master for those that have taken and completed the training of an Apprentice? Why do we have to take the titles from other religions when we are supposed to be a separate entity from other religions?
Just a thought.

Those rankings are the ones used to designate our development as Jedi. This discussion is regarding that of CLERGY.

Alright then, since we're discussing the Clergy, how about this, Initiate-Cleric, Apprentice-Cleric, Knight-Cleric, Master-Cleric. Do we really need more than that? I mean seriously, we're not all Catholics, and some people like myself, took this religion being that it was fresh, a change of pace from the others, yet here we still are, taking the titles they give to their Clergy, and applying them to ourselves. Those titles are not original, and not unique, and I feel that that is what Jediism is, unique, so we need something a little more original, even if the originality is in that the titles we use are the generics like Cleric.

The Catholic church originally did not have Deacons, Priests and Bishops this was a later development and all of the robes and hats and colors come right from Pagan trappings.

We are a unique religion but I'm not going to stop being a Witch or a Zen Master. I'm called so many different things by different people its too much to write but look at this:
http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=ddbvbrt2_37xw5vmf
and if there is anything here we have issues with than that's the bid deal. This Doctrine is what makes us Jedi.


I was raised Catholic but I do not participate in the church except for weddings or funerals and I don't believe lot's of the dogma. It looks like we're going to have several Rite's here.

The Jedi Rite
The Zen Rite
The Pagan Rite
The Christian Rite
The Esoteric Rite

Pure Jedi may use the clergy titles they are comfortable with (I like yours very much) and Christian Jedi clergy may use titles they and their ministry are comfortable with.

If someone would rather be called a Wizard that's fine too.

I have an idea of a universal language for us so we'll know the gist of what rank a person is no matter what title s/he uses. In the meantime relax and let's get on with our training and finishing our clergy handbook.

If you are a Taoist Sage you may use that title. After all the ceremony for a Christian baptism is different from a Wiccan Baby Naming and for the Pure Land Jedi we are still working on the clergy book. There's lots of work to be done and when a clergy person acts as a Chaplin they have to minister to a wide range of beliefs and if one should minister to a person at the point of death that's not the time to debate philosophy.

Some Jedi clergy will never do more than a wedding or two while some may go on to do other more time consuming ministries.

Failure is trying to please everybody and nobody here should address someone with a title they are not comfortable with. Mr. Jones and Ms. Kitty are polite and correct too.

Br. John

Br John, I have to say I like the organization format you laid out in the Rites of the Order. It is probably the best idea considering the vast gathering of people and backgrounds that make up the Order. It may also cool the issue with the clergy ranks that we have been talking about in this thread.

This comment isn't all that important, I was just wondering if anyone else has posted something, and seen it posted twice?

Yes, Br Shaun, it happens from time to time.

in many existences i have had in the flesh from the beginning of time to now, i have had many both respected and feared \"titles\". many either brought great honor to myself or struck tremendous fear in others. out of all of them from the beginning to now, i cherish and respect the title of \"friend\" the most. it has the most meaning and is the most simplistic and yet complicated of any title. i realize that this is not a title for Clergy but just my humble opinion. at the end of this thread and at the end of the day, we must remember we are all still friends.

It has happened to me, because my computer said that there was some kind of error and sent it again.