RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

What are you talking about, what they are capable of? All Clergy should be able to do the same cermonies, counselings and so forth, so maybe I'm not getting what you mean. I would figure the higher people would do more things, if necessary, but like I said I don't see what else there could be. There would be communion and that sort of stuff, any of them should be able to give sermons. Please let me know, I really want to understand your point, I'm just not seeing it yet.

DK

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Rev. Justice wrote:

Dhagon, I believe he is talking about the ordaining of new clergy members that can only be done by a Bishop or higher and the actual setting of doctrine and whatnot. Regular clergy members can perform the ceremonies, but are unable to ordain others as ministers.

Bishop Whiteman, you said, \"If it's not broken, why fix it?\" You asked how it could be fixed, if broken. I said I didn't believe it to be broken, but I offered this solution still.

Since Br John is the Sr Pastor here, I thought he held the title of Archbishop or whatever the equal was. That was my thoughts behind the Jedi High Cleric/High Cleric.

Hmmm, we'll have to ask him then. And yes I am talking about that as well as the other things that the other clergy can do.

Ok so, having now consulted our Senior Pastor I was again mistaken, though not as much as I had thought. He is indeed the Arch-Bishop. But as he explained to me that has nothing to do with holy orders of which the highest is Bishop. It has to do with jurisdiction.

I am glad to see so much interaction and passion over a topic. That is how doctrines and practices become set (as long as the people agree). Brother Dhagon, there are two separate areas of the Temple (if I am wrong, someone please correct me). There is the Jedi side that teaches the principles and the steps that lead to a choice of paths wherein the individual Jedi will become a Master. Then, there is the temple side of the Temple. Here, there are a handful of Jedi that have chosen to devote their lives to a calling aside from that of solely being a Jedi Knight. I relate it back to the idea that there were Jedi healers and Jedi warriors. The healers wore specific robes and performed specific duties whereas the warriors and Knights were charged with protection of the Order. Once I have achieved Mastery or Knighthood, I am not in a position to exert any power over any Knight or Master that is not of the Clergy side of the Temple. There are simply two separate paths that some members have chosen to follow. Should everyone be clergy? No, that is why it is a choice. You can be a mediocre or the greatest Jedi that ever came out of this Temple or any other and not be ordained within the Church. Let's just accept that there are two paths, and allow those that do not agree with the concept or simply the titles to follow their paths with the knowledge that we are not and will not be in any manner lording our positions over the Jedi that choose to not be clergy. I pray this matter is resolved soon and heartily accept any criticism to this letter. May the Force be with us all.

This may be at odds with what what we here at the Temple are trying to do, but I think the current titles, as I said before, should stay. As Bishop Whiteman as said, Using tites that are too similar to our Jedi titles would be confusing, not only to the people outside the order, but also to those who are already members. Also, the problem with not having a ranking system si that, as a fledgling organization, so to speak, there ahs to be someone that can make decisions for the organization. Once this organization gets on his feet, and has solidified doctrine and ceremonial proceedings, then if there is a need or eneral consensus to change the rankings or anything for that matter, then it would probably be better then. But, there's nothing really wrong with the ranking system. The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities. I for one am completely comfortable with our current ranking system Just because the Christian church uses these titles, doesn't mean we shouldn't. While these aren't \"universal\" titles, they are, as Master Whiteman said, fairly easily recogizable. And while it may not be the desire of some to be recognizable, I do believe it is the desire of many senior members of the Order. This organization needs to grow. And to do that people do need to takes this seriously. To take this seriously, people need to understand that we are a real organization with real Clergy. I am not, as you are not DK, trying to step on anyone's toes. But I Like the direction this organization is going. And though I am new here, I put my support in with Master Whiteman and Br. John.

This [These] is [are] the issue(s) that caused the schism of the Temple Of The Jedi Force and the Temple Of The Jedi Order.

You know how once in a while you see a SO ORDERED. It's a reference to a major decision of The Order. This is handy years later when doing a search.

Consider that I, Br. John, am the Grand-Cardinal-Arch-Bishop (Pope) of The Order and I'm all powerful.

Since we can't escape The Game Of Black And White ...

(if you have not read this yet - what's wrong with you?)

... I have almost absolute powers at the expense of having almost no choice.

I am Br. John because all of you say I am. I cannot make you a Master. I wish I could. The only way a person learns is by themselves and their's not a better way to learn by yourself than with the help of someone else.

We are on a luminous journey together; our diversity is our spice; our members are our heart; our combined power is beyond good and evil ... light and dark.

We are Jedi.

John, Servant of the servant's of The Order.

By Sirius,

The Jedi and Clergy in this organization are completely separate. To have names that are similar (Knight Cleric, Master Cleric) would be to muddy the distinction between these two serparate entities.

Not completely separate, brother. We clergy have normal Jedi ranks too, we just have extra responsibilty by bearing the title of clergy within the Order. I have an apprentice that I am responisble to teach, train, and guide just as other Knights and Masters do. The clergy side of the Temple is not the only side I deal with. If I found that being clergy hindered my efforts to train and teach my apprentice properly, I would step down in a heartbeat. Risking my apprentice is not worth the cost. I am devoted to my apprentice first and foremost. My duty as clergy comes second. So, I don't think it's really two separate entites, just two separate ranking systems for those few who have chosen to take on the extra responsiblity. It in no way, shape, or form makes any of us any better than the rest of our sisters or brothers within the Order. It just means we are able to be of service to them in ways others can not. Please do not take my words the wrong way, this is not any type of rebuke or said in ill towards you. You made very valid and strong points in what you said.

Yeah, I don't that was the intention of what I said...but I don't take offense at all. I just basically meant that there really is no way to use such similar titles and ranks for Jedi and Clergy, as all would do is confuse. Not they they are separate...but serve different roles.

Exactly my point br. justice, although not all Jedi are clergy, all clergy are still Jedi, therefore should correlate to a Jedi structure. As far as ordinations, simply a Master Jedi Cleric would be the ones who could do it, same as if you called them a Bishop instead. I'm still curious what other things that senior clergy would do aside from ordinations, which admittedly I hadn't thought of before, and should be done only by senior clergy.

DK