RANKING: Jedi Vs. Clergy

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Here was what I suggested:

Non Clergy -- - Clergy
Master Jedi - Master Jedi Cleric
Sr. Jedi Knight - Sr. Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Sr. Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Knight - Jedi Knight Cleric (or just Jedi Cleric)
Jedi Apprentice - Jedi Cleric Apprentice
Jedi Initiate - Jedi Cleric Initiate (though I don't believe someone should be ordained until they are atleast an apprentice)

These represent those who do not choose to be Clergy, and those who do, They separate those with more responsibility, seniority, knowledge, experience or whatever for both for Clergy and Non Clergy. It makes distinct separation for either, and makes it quite easy to discern who to go to if you need someone for a Clergy matter, regardless of the level you need to talk to. And under no circumstance, should Jedi be left out. First and foremost, everyone of us should be a Jedi, and if your not a Jedi, you should not be any sort of member of Jediism Clergy. By denying what we are, Jedi, we are selling ourselves short. You can be a Jedi and a member of the Clergy, by taking the term Jedi out of it, it would seem you have to choose one or the other. Just some more thoughts.

DK

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

When we start dealing out titles like some of the ones I've seen suggested, people are going to start power-tripping, and how is that in keeping in line with Jediism? We aren't Bishop's or Archbishops or monsignor's, I joined Jediism, the closest thing I could agree to other than just Init, App, Knight or Master, is the Cleric idea, it's generic, and still conveys something of a religious title with it. We aren't supposed to favor another religion, we are autonomous, or so says the Front page in no certain terms.

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Maybe we should put it to a vote, it seems the sensible thing to do. If someone can contact Jidun, I'd prefer we put it on the side than wait for people to sign into this particular forum board and vote. I say we leave it open for atleat two weeks, and somehow (if possible) prevent multiple voting by the same person.

DK

Very wise idea Brother DK, one of our Jedi beliefs is \"In the importance of democracy within religious, political, and other structures.\"
Let the brethren decide.

Lenny
Jedi Knight

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

Br. John wrote:

Some of this has to do with delight in arcane things like which fork to use when there’s five at the setting or knowing that it’s perfectly proper to pick up steamed asparagus with your fingers even at a formal White House dinner.

Some of my posts, while true, are not imperatives and as I look at all this it’s almost funny. I say almost because the entire rank / council business got a lot of folk’s doin’ a lot of hatin’!

Br. Shaun says:

Why not just this:

Initiate-someone in the Order but without a Master
Apprentice-a person that has found a Master and started training
Knight-someone who has completed their training
Master-someone who has completed their training, and successfully trained someone else in the ways of the Jedi?

This is more orthodox and I’m telling you right now that I’ve had the feeling that my idea of starting at Knight with different grades does not work. This is well worth considering.

In the next post I’ll deal with the clergy so we can keep these two issues separate.

For a quick informal straw poll please reply to this post. I'm sure Master Dunn can fix us a poll and two weeks is plenty of time to vote.

Br. John

The church has already voted and accepted the Current Jedi ranking structure has it not? It was my understanding this had to do with Clergy not the Jedi ranking.

Whiteknight wrote:

But we need a way of distinguishing between the Clergy and other members, without making one seem higher than the other even though we know this not to be. I suggest we think of a sytem and stick to it. The titles used may make it look like particular members are \"higher up\", but we should have information posted somewhere making it clear that we arn't.

Considering this, it might be a good idea to have a constitution. It would take matters like this and sort them out once and for all in a clear document. Ofcourse it would take some time to compile but once it has been, it will help to eradicate confusion and give out a set of clear guideline on how things should be done. Of course if anything isn't working amendments can be made.

Are you offering to help with this committee?

Br. John

We are a church and have clergy.

A commissioned minister is a person who is not full time clergy and does not have duties or responsibilities of any continuing nature. We don’t have any of these and if and when we do it would be for a member who just wanted to conduct a wedding for a friend or other one time service and that’s it. If another occasion comes then they get another commission for the specific service.

Licensed ministers are those licensed by the church as full time clergy during good behavior (no time limit) and they have a higher duty of service and responsibilities. They can conduce weddings and all other ceremonies except regular spiritual counseling and or ‘confessions’ protected under state law as privileged communications.

These two functions are where we cross into legal territory. Authorized ministers are exempt from counseling licenses and can be told things in confidence which is a privileged communication and the minister cannot be compelled to repeat them.

A license can be revoked at any time when it’s in the best interest of The Order like if someone lied on their application or got the license just for a joke or for abusing the power etc.

A Whateveryoucallit has the same powers as a licensed minister but they are ordained and its permanent – no take backs. For bad behavior such and one can be forbidden from exercising their powers under penalty of expulsion from The Order.

A Whoeveryoucallit is ordained and in addition to all the powers of a minister can help folks with continuing spiritual counseling and hear a confidence protected by law. By now you see why a license is so easy to get and it’s only after a person is comfortable in the clergy and proven themselves that we give them powers that can harm people.

All of these folks can just be called Rev. as a matter of common etiquette in a formal setting.

The Wheneveryouareit has all the powers of the Whoeveryoucallit and can license and ordain.

Our clergy are the servants not the masters of The Order.

This is an exciting and well mannered discussion and it’s great. I unpublished but did not delete the Sith post as garbage. A post that says nothing but “George is a Dark Lord and smells like an outhouse” or “that Jedi bitch used her powers to make me pee myself” should not even get the dignity of an answer. Nobody’s running around censoring here and if we do remove something we keep a copy. Debate is always welcome and garbage goes in the trash double bagged.

I’m going to quit while I’m ahead and see what commentary comes along.

Br. John

We voted and are the current structure is official but a number of members are asking to reconsider the question. This is not something that can keep changing or soon we'll be so confused we won't know who anyone is or what they're doing but this early in the game there's no harm in considering amendments and no emergency.

Like I said, I blame myself for making this seem like a bigger deal than what it is with all my history of etiquette etc.

And we all failed to consider the issue or Rite's. (Not Rights.) For example a Jedi who is also a Christian and clergy would conduct a baptism while a Jedi who is a Wiccan and clergy would conduct a naming.

The duties of a Jedi Clergy in an emergency could require them to conduct a ceremony for a faith they did not share like a Chaplin.

Jediism stands alone as a way of life but I'm not leaving my traditions and comfort zone at the door. I did not quit being half Sicilian or quit the custom of giving presents on my birthday. I did not quit Zen.

The committee did a good job and I think a lot of folks did not notice until round one was complete.

Let's relax and have some fun seeing if we can reach a consensus.

Br. John<br><br>Post edited by: Br. John, at: 2007/06/01 11:05

I agree with all that you said here Br. John, I wouldn't ask someone to quit their beliefs for Jediism. I also have no problems with the current designations of rank for normal Jedi, as far as I knew, the only discussion was designations of rank of Jedi who are also Clergy. I also have to agree, this is a rather well mannered discussion, and I'm glad to see that every one is in control of thier emotions. I have not see Jidun around, does this form of voting that I have recommended in previous post seem like something that can be done, or would it be too difficult?