- Posts: 5242
What do you get out of magic/k?
22 Aug 2014 18:27 #157081
by Edan
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
What do you get out of magic/k? was created by Edan
I have a question that came from Arcade's thread, but I didn't want to hijack.
For me, magic/k was always kind of intertwined with my previous theistic beliefs. When I stopped believing in gods/other beings etc, I stopped 'believing' in magic. I think I got to a point where I wanted things to be the outcome of my work, but in truth it just eventually felt all in my mind. I wanted to see effects, so I saw them, I wanted to feel something, so I felt it.
There were some strange things that happened that I still can't explain, but since I can't, I don't really think about them too much.
For those of you here who are still doing some form of magic, I guess my question is, why? What do you all feel that you get out of it?
For me, magic/k was always kind of intertwined with my previous theistic beliefs. When I stopped believing in gods/other beings etc, I stopped 'believing' in magic. I think I got to a point where I wanted things to be the outcome of my work, but in truth it just eventually felt all in my mind. I wanted to see effects, so I saw them, I wanted to feel something, so I felt it.
There were some strange things that happened that I still can't explain, but since I can't, I don't really think about them too much.
For those of you here who are still doing some form of magic, I guess my question is, why? What do you all feel that you get out of it?
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
Please Log in to join the conversation.
22 Aug 2014 18:36 #157083
by RyuJin
Quotes:
Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
I'm the best at what I do, what I do ain't pretty-wolverine
J.L.Lawson,Master Knight, M.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
Replied by RyuJin on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
"Of course it's all in your head, why should that mean that it isn't real?"-albus dumbledore-
Most of what I do isn't for myself but for others...for anything to work everyone involved has to believe it to work...especially protective charms/rituals etc..
Most of what I do isn't for myself but for others...for anything to work everyone involved has to believe it to work...especially protective charms/rituals etc..
Warning: Spoiler!
There is passion, yet there is peace
Through passion I gain strength and knowledge
Through strength and knowledge I gain victory
Through victory I gain peace and harmony
Through peace and harmony my chains are broken
There is no death, there is the force and it shall free me
Through passion I gain strength and knowledge
Through strength and knowledge I gain victory
Through victory I gain peace and harmony
Through peace and harmony my chains are broken
There is no death, there is the force and it shall free me
Quotes:
Warning: Spoiler!
Out of darkness, he brings light. Out of hatred, love. Out of dishonor, honor-james allen-
He who has conquered doubt and fear has conquered failure-james allen-
The sword is the key to heaven and hell-Mahomet-
The best won victory is that obtained without shedding blood-Count Katsu-
All men's souls are immortal, only the souls of the righteous are immortal and divine -Socrates-
I'm the best at what I do, what I do ain't pretty-wolverine
J.L.Lawson,Master Knight, M.div, Eastern Studies S.I.G. Advisor (Formerly Known as the Buddhist Rite)
Former Masters: GM Kana Seiko Haruki , Br.John
Current Apprentices: Baru
Former Apprentices:Adhara(knight), Zenchi (knight)
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan
Please Log in to join the conversation.
22 Aug 2014 20:19 #157096
by
Replied by on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
Some people understand magic in other ways,is complex.
Religions have lots of concepts and behaviour close to magic,by example the tabù:
Thats, what is not acceptable by some reason...in many cases the need of human create new religions or reformat others to create new rules...many times, prohibitions have as base the idea of protect or prevent a negative magic.
( If we contemplates the idea of magic, as a thing that produce a change)
We can to see magic in lots of places...publicity,religion,social behaviour...
human specie want trascend,grow...across the sea...
make a way opened with the wand.
Some magic as Maat and others that are in balance with nature,can to be observed as therapy.
and some therapies, as magical
Religions have lots of concepts and behaviour close to magic,by example the tabù:
Thats, what is not acceptable by some reason...in many cases the need of human create new religions or reformat others to create new rules...many times, prohibitions have as base the idea of protect or prevent a negative magic.
( If we contemplates the idea of magic, as a thing that produce a change)
We can to see magic in lots of places...publicity,religion,social behaviour...
human specie want trascend,grow...across the sea...
make a way opened with the wand.
Some magic as Maat and others that are in balance with nature,can to be observed as therapy.
and some therapies, as magical
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 07:04 - 23 Aug 2014 07:33 #157143
by
I ended up writing more than I thought I might on this topic, so to avoid cluttering up the thread I've included it under a spoiler.![:) :)](/media/kunena/emoticons/8.png)
Replied by on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
Edan wrote: For those of you here who are still doing some form of magic, I guess my question is, why? What do you all feel that you get out of it?
I ended up writing more than I thought I might on this topic, so to avoid cluttering up the thread I've included it under a spoiler.
![:) :)](/media/kunena/emoticons/8.png)
Warning: Spoiler!
I've gone 'round in a weird sort of circle. I initially got involved in Esoteric Christianity (theurgical practices), then moved in the opposite direction (left-hand path traditions that were Satanic in nature) - mainly because in my early teens I didn't recognize the relevance of other religious or magical systems that weren't, in some way, related to Christianity.
From there, I got into shamanism and chaos magic, and remained part of the chaos current for almost 15 years. During that time, I also spent 6-7 years exploring Paganism (non-traditional). As a Pagan, at least in the beginning, I was still of the belief that I was communing with a god or gods through ritual, prayer, and spellwork. Then, probably due to certain experiences with chaos magic (and a slow transition toward pantheistic Paganism), I started to lose faith in the idea that the gods were omnipresent and/or all-powerful spiritual beings.
In chaos magic, there's no requirement that you believe in magic. The emphasis is on results and all that is necessary to practice is the capacity to temporarily immerse yourself in various belief systems (that may not be your own) in order to achieve goals - generally abandoning those beliefs when they are no longer useful or beneficial. Essentially, belief acts as a tool. Had I not been a practicing chaos magician for a few years when I started to realize that my understanding of reality didn't include the existence of gods and spirits (at least not in the typical sense), I would have likely felt fairly lost.
For a while, I avoided thinking about gods in relation to magic and ritual and was content with the exclusion of that element from my magical practices, but then I felt a pull toward Vodou (a monotheistic religion that venerates ancestor spirits known as Loa) and Anglo-Saxon Heathenry (polytheistic), so I had to find a way to resolve the obvious dilemma. My first year of involvement with the Vodou community was uncomfortable because when speaking with others in the community I felt I had to be careful to sidestep any questions that might give me away or let others know that I was a fraud.![:unsure: :unsure:](/media/kunena/emoticons/22.png)
Or at least that's how I felt. When I began talking with people, there was really very little concern. Most of my friends were accepting and surprised me with their honesty and open-mindedness. Certain individuals had to spend some time mulling over our discussions about my lack of belief, but no one ever told me I couldn't participate.
I'm primarily a solitary practitioner when it comes to Heathenry and consider myself a 'functional polytheist'. Meaning, I utilize polytheistic concepts, theology, and symbolism as psychological tools for personally development (and even honor and offer devotions to certain gods or spirit beings), but don't believe in the literal existence of god(s) or deity. Everything and everyone is sacred to me, though I don't acknowledge an ultimate intelligence. I do acknowledge the interconnectedness of all things (recognizing that different phenomena are inseparable, but not that they are the same).
I know this might confuse some people given my atheistic tendencies, but I also believe in a certain form of telepathy that I feel plays an essential role in the process of remote viewing. I don't view this as beyond the realm of science, however, and even if it were it would still be real to me.
This is the thing that I think many people misunderstand about the way I approach magic, religion, and magical/spiritual practices. It doesn't matter to me if it's 'real' or not (in terms of its existence in objective reality). I continue to find these practices beneficial and worth my time. Magic has, on numerous occasions, conveyed invaluable lessons, encouraged positive focus during times of hardship (or given me an outlet for negative energy), helped me help others, and inspired and motivated me to enhance and improve myself mentally, physically, and spiritually.
In answer to your question, why magic?... For me, it's pretty much what I've written in the last paragraph. I might add that it's a way for me to keep track of things that I want or need (or don't need or want) and things that I'd like to change within myself or in my reality. A lot of magic, for me, is changing my perspective or my perception of something or someone and then watching as my environment and others around me change along with the changes I've made.
Basically, it's an effective tool for personal transformation (that can be used without belief if one so chooses). So, from my point of view, you can be a magician (sorcerer, wizard, witch, whatever you prefer) without making use of your previous theistic beliefs. If you weren't getting results from magic that's another conversation, but perhaps you were looking at it from an angle that made it seem like something it wasn't (or wasn't to you anyway)? Maybe you were relying too much on deity and not enough on yourself? Or maybe the spells and rituals that you were performing had little significance to you?
It's a big, magical world and there are thousands of different forms of magic that people can work with if they please. My experience has been that there's a type of magic(k) that's compatible with every person. The challenge is finding that, and to be honest, my feeling is that magic is just one tool, one path leading to the top of the mountain. There are plenty of other tools and techniques that can help you along your journey if you find that you're not well suited to the magical practices that you're familiar with and don't have the energy or patience to sort through all the grimoires, courses, and magical systems out there (about half of which are ineffective, incomplete, or intentionally misleading).
From there, I got into shamanism and chaos magic, and remained part of the chaos current for almost 15 years. During that time, I also spent 6-7 years exploring Paganism (non-traditional). As a Pagan, at least in the beginning, I was still of the belief that I was communing with a god or gods through ritual, prayer, and spellwork. Then, probably due to certain experiences with chaos magic (and a slow transition toward pantheistic Paganism), I started to lose faith in the idea that the gods were omnipresent and/or all-powerful spiritual beings.
In chaos magic, there's no requirement that you believe in magic. The emphasis is on results and all that is necessary to practice is the capacity to temporarily immerse yourself in various belief systems (that may not be your own) in order to achieve goals - generally abandoning those beliefs when they are no longer useful or beneficial. Essentially, belief acts as a tool. Had I not been a practicing chaos magician for a few years when I started to realize that my understanding of reality didn't include the existence of gods and spirits (at least not in the typical sense), I would have likely felt fairly lost.
For a while, I avoided thinking about gods in relation to magic and ritual and was content with the exclusion of that element from my magical practices, but then I felt a pull toward Vodou (a monotheistic religion that venerates ancestor spirits known as Loa) and Anglo-Saxon Heathenry (polytheistic), so I had to find a way to resolve the obvious dilemma. My first year of involvement with the Vodou community was uncomfortable because when speaking with others in the community I felt I had to be careful to sidestep any questions that might give me away or let others know that I was a fraud.
![:unsure: :unsure:](/media/kunena/emoticons/22.png)
Or at least that's how I felt. When I began talking with people, there was really very little concern. Most of my friends were accepting and surprised me with their honesty and open-mindedness. Certain individuals had to spend some time mulling over our discussions about my lack of belief, but no one ever told me I couldn't participate.
I'm primarily a solitary practitioner when it comes to Heathenry and consider myself a 'functional polytheist'. Meaning, I utilize polytheistic concepts, theology, and symbolism as psychological tools for personally development (and even honor and offer devotions to certain gods or spirit beings), but don't believe in the literal existence of god(s) or deity. Everything and everyone is sacred to me, though I don't acknowledge an ultimate intelligence. I do acknowledge the interconnectedness of all things (recognizing that different phenomena are inseparable, but not that they are the same).
I know this might confuse some people given my atheistic tendencies, but I also believe in a certain form of telepathy that I feel plays an essential role in the process of remote viewing. I don't view this as beyond the realm of science, however, and even if it were it would still be real to me.
This is the thing that I think many people misunderstand about the way I approach magic, religion, and magical/spiritual practices. It doesn't matter to me if it's 'real' or not (in terms of its existence in objective reality). I continue to find these practices beneficial and worth my time. Magic has, on numerous occasions, conveyed invaluable lessons, encouraged positive focus during times of hardship (or given me an outlet for negative energy), helped me help others, and inspired and motivated me to enhance and improve myself mentally, physically, and spiritually.
In answer to your question, why magic?... For me, it's pretty much what I've written in the last paragraph. I might add that it's a way for me to keep track of things that I want or need (or don't need or want) and things that I'd like to change within myself or in my reality. A lot of magic, for me, is changing my perspective or my perception of something or someone and then watching as my environment and others around me change along with the changes I've made.
Basically, it's an effective tool for personal transformation (that can be used without belief if one so chooses). So, from my point of view, you can be a magician (sorcerer, wizard, witch, whatever you prefer) without making use of your previous theistic beliefs. If you weren't getting results from magic that's another conversation, but perhaps you were looking at it from an angle that made it seem like something it wasn't (or wasn't to you anyway)? Maybe you were relying too much on deity and not enough on yourself? Or maybe the spells and rituals that you were performing had little significance to you?
It's a big, magical world and there are thousands of different forms of magic that people can work with if they please. My experience has been that there's a type of magic(k) that's compatible with every person. The challenge is finding that, and to be honest, my feeling is that magic is just one tool, one path leading to the top of the mountain. There are plenty of other tools and techniques that can help you along your journey if you find that you're not well suited to the magical practices that you're familiar with and don't have the energy or patience to sort through all the grimoires, courses, and magical systems out there (about half of which are ineffective, incomplete, or intentionally misleading).
Last edit: 23 Aug 2014 07:33 by .
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 08:45 - 23 Aug 2014 09:05 #157146
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
Contrasted to normal feelings, thoughts and action!! For me it signal's important intention - to whatever it might be that I'm working with... be it my subconscious, or some unknown supernatural aspect of a wider reality. But so can religion, so...
... it fits into a worldview I have that includes religion and science. Science being how the natural order can be objectively measured and used for the human purpose, with religion being about a supernatural/subconscious order as a set of belief and practices of something metaphysical, and finally magic being the confluence of the other two that see's the supernatural/subconscious influence unto the natural/physical world. In that regard science is the easiest field to work with, while religion and magick seem more important, elusive and with the potential of being more rewarding, but also risky.
... it fits into a worldview I have that includes religion and science. Science being how the natural order can be objectively measured and used for the human purpose, with religion being about a supernatural/subconscious order as a set of belief and practices of something metaphysical, and finally magic being the confluence of the other two that see's the supernatural/subconscious influence unto the natural/physical world. In that regard science is the easiest field to work with, while religion and magick seem more important, elusive and with the potential of being more rewarding, but also risky.
Last edit: 23 Aug 2014 09:05 by Adder.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan
Please Log in to join the conversation.
- Alexandre Orion
-
- Offline
- Master
-
Registered
- om mani padme hum
Less
More
- Posts: 7077
23 Aug 2014 10:21 - 23 Aug 2014 10:24 #157149
by Alexandre Orion
Replied by Alexandre Orion on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
I think it was Isaac Bonewits who schematised the relationships of science, art, religion and magic. These can be illustrated (sens large, bien entendu !) as :
Now, what that means to me is that for everything that we do, there is some action on the "meta-" level that exceeds the immediate scope of whatever it is we are wanting to be doing. This is true from everything from the most elaborate magickal rite to simply doing the laundry. Thus intention is important (albeit it is strange to imagine someone doing laundry maliciously
). We already admit pretty readily that nothing is really separate from anything else. There is a sort of unity which reigns, that was there before everything and that everything arises from and returns to, an everything that is ubiquitous, mysterious and that we can't get our heads around very well. We can however be aware of it. And it is this awareness that can be a formidable strength to all of these various aspects of mind.
Moreover, one doesn't necessarily need choose ; they are all going on at once, even if we think that we have rationally rejected one or another. People like to regard themselves as rational, reasonable folk and thus would boast of subscribing to the science mind more than any of the others - for practitioners of magick, that is the identification, for an artist, art and for a traditional cleric, religion. Then they get all sorts of steamed when one implies that their methods are impractical ... go figure ! :S
Anyway, let's get back to what we were saying about the "meta-" aspects of everything. Awareness of what influences our intent and action ensuing thereof may have beyond the practice by whatever means it entails is to bring an equal awareness to that unity - that vast and magnificent and terrifying everything - that we already eagerly accept. Therefore, in keeping with the notion that for any and every task there is a cascade of causal possibilities, it is that awareness of the variables outside of what we can immediately take into account (and there are many !) that makes marvellous things out of will.
To de-mystify Bonewits' schematic, I see 'practical means' as the variables we can take into account and the immediate manipulation (again, in its positive sense) of the environment, and 'practical ends' as that about which we can be reasonably certain will result if our assessment of the practical means was accurate. 'Impractical means' would therefore be those which do not have a direct causal link to the result, but are those actions which access or bring about the circumstances whereby the desired result can most favourably arise. 'Impractical ends' I understand as representations of things, events or conditions, insubstantial, yet may occasion both practical and impractical means thereafter.
But then, I'm just a priest, and not much of a magician, so what the hell would I know ? I don't even really like to do the laundry either ...![:unsure: :unsure:](/media/kunena/emoticons/22.png)
... so, really, all I expect to get magically : clean laundry.
- science - practical means to practical ends
- art - practical means to impractical ends
- religion - impractical means to impractical ends
- magick - impractical means to practical ends
Now, what that means to me is that for everything that we do, there is some action on the "meta-" level that exceeds the immediate scope of whatever it is we are wanting to be doing. This is true from everything from the most elaborate magickal rite to simply doing the laundry. Thus intention is important (albeit it is strange to imagine someone doing laundry maliciously
![:P :P](/media/kunena/emoticons/15.png)
Moreover, one doesn't necessarily need choose ; they are all going on at once, even if we think that we have rationally rejected one or another. People like to regard themselves as rational, reasonable folk and thus would boast of subscribing to the science mind more than any of the others - for practitioners of magick, that is the identification, for an artist, art and for a traditional cleric, religion. Then they get all sorts of steamed when one implies that their methods are impractical ... go figure ! :S
Anyway, let's get back to what we were saying about the "meta-" aspects of everything. Awareness of what influences our intent and action ensuing thereof may have beyond the practice by whatever means it entails is to bring an equal awareness to that unity - that vast and magnificent and terrifying everything - that we already eagerly accept. Therefore, in keeping with the notion that for any and every task there is a cascade of causal possibilities, it is that awareness of the variables outside of what we can immediately take into account (and there are many !) that makes marvellous things out of will.
To de-mystify Bonewits' schematic, I see 'practical means' as the variables we can take into account and the immediate manipulation (again, in its positive sense) of the environment, and 'practical ends' as that about which we can be reasonably certain will result if our assessment of the practical means was accurate. 'Impractical means' would therefore be those which do not have a direct causal link to the result, but are those actions which access or bring about the circumstances whereby the desired result can most favourably arise. 'Impractical ends' I understand as representations of things, events or conditions, insubstantial, yet may occasion both practical and impractical means thereafter.
But then, I'm just a priest, and not much of a magician, so what the hell would I know ? I don't even really like to do the laundry either ...
![:unsure: :unsure:](/media/kunena/emoticons/22.png)
... so, really, all I expect to get magically : clean laundry.
![:cheer: :cheer:](/media/kunena/emoticons/10.png)
Last edit: 23 Aug 2014 10:24 by Alexandre Orion.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 11:44 #157151
by
Replied by on topic Re:What do you get out of magic/k?
It's a lot about perspective, as well. Santa Claus, Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy aren't real to me and you, but to my 4 year old son they are very real. But even knowing that they are aren't real, I still get a lot out of them, even though it's through my son.
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 15:16 #157171
by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
First of all, how do you define magic/k? That question will largely influence as well as determine what an practitioner gets out of it. For me, it has become intrinsic to being alive. I have found after nearly thirty years of study, practice and exploration that the most powerful magic is rooted in self transformation, and should be associated with psychology...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 20:25 #157233
by Edan
This is how it seems to me now.
When I did perform magic, my work slowly moved from 'external' to 'internal'... when my mentor had a massive altar in his living room he performed rituals at, I just had a little box I kept my things in... eventually I didn't have anything. I withdrew inwards until I absorbed everything and stopped completely.
Perhaps I just never found the right method for me. My mentor dealt what he called 'dark qabbalah' but it never interested me, so most of what I knew I taught myself.
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
Replied by Edan on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
Zenchi wrote: should be associated with psychology...
This is how it seems to me now.
When I did perform magic, my work slowly moved from 'external' to 'internal'... when my mentor had a massive altar in his living room he performed rituals at, I just had a little box I kept my things in... eventually I didn't have anything. I withdrew inwards until I absorbed everything and stopped completely.
Perhaps I just never found the right method for me. My mentor dealt what he called 'dark qabbalah' but it never interested me, so most of what I knew I taught myself.
It won't let me have a blank signature ...
Please Log in to join the conversation.
23 Aug 2014 21:03 #157239
by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic What do you get out of magic/k?
Sounds like the Qlippoth, and its VERY DARK.
It requires hours a week of yoga like discipline to prevent it from literally taking over the psyche and causing psychosis.Those kind of "stains" don't wash away...
The following user(s) said Thank You: Edan
Please Log in to join the conversation.