Definition of Christianity.

\"The propensity for the Western church to accept the agenda of aid organizations as focal to the Great Commission has seriously skewed mission. Mission to the middle class is seen as proclamation. To the poor it has become giving handouts or assisting in development as defined by Christianized humanitarian perspectives. It is far easier for churches to give thousands of dollars than to find one of their members who will walk into the slums for a decade.\" -- (Viv Grigg, Cry of the Urban Poor (Monrovia, CA: MARC, 1992, 16).

\"A Christ-ian is one who has the Christ spirit. This is our understanding of the original meaning of the word. We suppose all will assent to and accept it as correct . . . . Men are Christ-ians according to the spirit of the Christ which is in them and manifested in the flesh. In some persons it is small, in others large. Either hidden or manifest this spirit resides in all. Consciously or unconsciously it is contained in every man or woman that lives or has lived.\"

Having long suffered the weight attached to the word religion I do not know how to define Christian. The Catholic Church says Mormons are not Christians and converts have to be baptized. Many Protestant churches say Catholics are not Christians and do not Hail Mary or venerate Saints.

What am I?

I believe that Jesus was a Zen Master who attained Cosmic Consciousness but is not the only son or daughter of God. I do not believe his body rose from the dead but I do believe his spirit did not die and that he appeared to people after his death in an Obi Wan Kenobi sort of way.

I see the amazing benefits of the sacraments and the comfort they provide and that, if nothing else, makes them holy.

M

So, let me get this strait. Muslims are supposed to be doing third world missionaries even though they live (mostly) in third world countries? We'll just say they should be doing missionaries period. But they are just being lazy or stubborn, or they realized that people that must be converted question the control imposed on them more, so decided to just corrupt their followers from a young age. (hmm sounds familiar?). And they are supposed to be more frivolent at it than Christians because it says to in their book of the word of their god. Does it not seem a little sketchy that it almost identically reflects what is says to do in the Bible, and if we were to read many more words of other gods, probably the same thing. THEY ALL CAME FROM THE SAME PLACE PEOPLE! Thats why the resemble each other so much. Haven't you ever wondered why these people don't like it, in fact many forbid their followers to research other religions. They're afraid that they will be enlightened by the possiblility of many other truths. I've seen it first hand, families disown children because they go to college and take classes on eastern religions and things to broaden their horizons, they don't want that, they want that same narrow view they have, its appalling. Your supposed to want a better life for your children and grandchildren, not the same or worse. These are the same people that strike down at first chance with their words those who believe that things from movies could be true, like SW or even the Matrix. Sure I may not believe it personally, but I atleast understand that if it were true, I wouldn't know until I leave this world, so it is undoubtedly a possibility. Anything is possible. What I have a hard time believing is that a god, any god would create a creature in its own image, and then because it disobeyed one of the rules that you commanded them not to disobey that you would not only punish them, but any and every decendend throughout time as well because of that one mistake. Especially a mistake that supposedly was cohersed from one of your fallen angels (read minions). To me thats harder to believe than a bunch of robots are farming humans to use like batteries because the humans of the past created them with too much AI. Thats just me I guess.

This thread has become more of a back and forth than a discussion, I'd like to see others views on this subject, if there are no other views, or others are too afraid to voice them, than this has truly become a church.

DK

Br. Dhagon, did you not know we are a Church?

\"We are an international online church in the process of building local communities.\"
-Front Page, TOTJO

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

What are the things that you see that are making it more like a church? I was not raised around religion. My grandmother used to listen to gospel on sunday mornings when she cooked breakfast for the family. That's what I think church is.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

I know that many here call it a church, but it does not fit the definition I hold for a church, well, atleast it didn't, it getting there. I'm trying to ignore that fact though, trust me its not a good thing. I concider this a Temple, since its right in the name. Up until fairly recently it has fit that description well, but its drifting further toward a church more and more.

DK

Church is synonimous with temple.

(wikipedia) The word church is used to describe a building used for prayer, worship, or other public religious services.

(wikipedia) A temple (from the Latin word templum) is a structure reserved for religious or spiritual activities, such as prayer and sacrifice, or analogous rites.

Hmmm, sound an awful lot alike to me...in fact I'd say they are the same darn thing.

There seems to be quite a few people who feel they have been let down by religion, myself included. But before we completely scrap the experiences of millions of believers, we should grant this belief at least one good looking at. We have to look, because the whole truth about God is not accessible with the pressing of a button. It is up to each person to look, it is each person`s responsability to find out, and it is each person`s personal burden to accept the challenge of faith. Illumination does not fall off the back end of a lorry.

Are those who want proof for the existance of God not putting limits on the way God reveals Himself through that very question? Does the very demand for a comprehensible proof of God not make us blind to the proofs which are already available? Well I have to be honest, if I told my wife \"I´ll believe you when I`m convinced!\" my marriage would not have lasted a day. How far are we prepared to look beyond the ends of our own noses?

You are correct Tom their worldly definitions are basically the same. I said my definitions are different, I wouldn't expect you to understand whats in my head, just know that It didn't previously fit that description, but is getting closer, thats all.

Br. Hans, I have looked and looked into this religion. For several years I did everything I could to follow what \"God's word\" was, both from the bible and the word he supposedly spoke through sermons from the pastor(s) of a few different churches. The simple fact remains, no matter how hard I tried, no matter how much work I did, it helped noone. Not myself, which is not why I was doing it, but it didn't make me feel like I was making a difference, or feeling even slightly warm from the supposed holy spirit, for doing the \"good works of God\". It didn't help anyone else either, in fact I realized later, that many of the things that we were \"supposed\" to do according to the church and bible drove more people away from the church than it brought. Of the many times I asked god to fill me with his spirit, to show me what he wanted me to do, I felt something only once and I'm quite certain it was because I lost control of my emotions, and cannot honestly say that I think it was anything other than an overpouring of those emotions. I know every God fearing man will say it was him, but noone knows exactly what I felt and therefore cannot say for sure it was anything other than that loss of control. So with all that junk being said, I have looked past my nose and given this religion more than a fair shake and chance, and it fell short.

DK

Words are so interchangeable the root word Church means gathering, you know that there are 200 ways to say love and hate they all mean the same thing in no matter how you spell it or speak it, it also depends on the user and there experience.
Tomato, tamato it is still the same food used in many ways, temple / church are interchangeable depending on your up bringing and both are valid for this place of worship and gathering which is what we do here and I'm sure that no one here makes sacrifices except sleep to keep up with the time zones in the IM-ing each other.

Mojiimoto - Jedi Padawan

You see, thats part of the problem, people come here to worship. What would a Jedi worship? The Force? I don't think so. So why come here to worship? I have no problem with people being any religion they want to, but if you want to worship God, Budda, Muhammed or whoever, that should be done at a church created for that purpose, or at home. Not in a Temple created for the development of the Jedi way of life, phylophy, and even for a Jediism spiritual journey. To me, that would be equivalent to going into a Muslim shrine and kneeling to pray to God, or going into a Catholic church and sitting on the floor or a pillow and begin chanting to begin your buddist meditation. Would either of those make sense? Not to me. I'm in no way saying that people should hide what they believe and so forth, but as far as discussion goes it should be directed more toward Jedi and Jediism.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

You see, thats part of the problem, people come here to worship. What would a Jedi worship? The Force? I don't think so. So why come here to worship? I have no problem with people being any religion they want to, but if you want to worship God, Budda, Muhammed or whoever, that should be done at a church created for that purpose, or at home. Not in a Temple created for the development of the Jedi way of life, phylophy, and even for a Jediism spiritual journey. To me, that would be equivalent to going into a Muslim shrine and kneeling to pray to God, or going into a Catholic church and sitting on the floor or a pillow and begin chanting to begin your buddist meditation. Would either of those make sense? Not to me. I'm in no way saying that people should hide what they believe and so forth, but as far as discussion goes it should be directed more toward Jedi and Jediism.

DK

Exactly, YOU don't think so. Many others do however think so and are more than welcome to do so. This is a a Jedi Church to be sure but Jediism is an interfaith religion, syncretistic in its form. That is what makes Jediism so great! You are more then welcome to feel the way you do. and it is that freedom in faith that strengthens our unity.

\"Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>\"
-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

According to this there would be no reason not to be able to worship the Force.

Br.Dhagon, I thought a lot about what you said. Could we not consider Jediism as say a type of common lanuage we all speak here, and Christianity/Buddhism/Islam/Wiccan... as the (cultural) dialect in whic each individual Jedi speaks?

Jon wrote:

\"Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1chiefly British : a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2: reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3: a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4: extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>\"
-Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

According to this there would be no reason not to be able to worship the Force.

Br.Dhagon, I thought a lot about what you said. Could we not consider Jediism as say a type of common lanuage we all speak here, and Christianity/Buddhism/Islam/Wiccan... as the (cultural) dialect in whic each individual Jedi speaks?

I Love it Hans...Dead On!

Please explain to me what there could possibly be to worship of the Force. I'm not talking about Christians who see the Force as the same thing as the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about the non-deity, part of everyone, everyone a part of, envelops and penetrates us all Force. What is there to worship?

DK

Here, before anyone replies to my last post, let me offer this. After a moment of \"different\" clarity after taking my pain meds (percocet). That if everyone lived thier life according to common sense, it wouldn't matter what religion you were, you would already be welcome into whatever after life you believe in. Think about it, common sense is that you shouldn't kill someone, you shouldn't take something that is not already yours without paying, to include someones spouse. You should be truthfull, whereas the only reason to tell a fib would be where it could hurt someone to know the truth (i.e. does this make me look fat?) You do all you can to take care of yourself and your family without help from others, unless necessary. If necessary help out others who absolutely need it. That sort of thing. Even if you are not taught these things at a young age, it is common sense for the most part. If everyone kept to themselves about personal morals/religious views we wouldn't have half the problems in this world.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Please explain to me what there could possibly be to worship of the Force. I'm not talking about Christians who see the Force as the same thing as the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about the non-deity, part of everyone, everyone a part of, envelops and penetrates us all Force. What is there to worship?

DK

Hey Br.Dhagon you answered your own question....

\"I'm talking about the non-deity, part of everyone, everyone a part of, envelops and penetrates us all Force.\"

What could not be more understandable than to reverence that which keeps us alive? Life itself!

I still see no reason to worship it. Life Is. Thats all, if you worshipped life, you'd have to worship everything that lives, that could be time consuming don't you think?

\"Worship\" may mean different things to different people?

I cannot \"worship\" the Force, or consider being a Jedi as part of a religion. But that is from my perspective.

As a Quaker - we do not \"Worship\" God - but listen to hear what we sense is the message of the almighty. (Quakers do not have icons of any kind including the cross - in fact - you do not have to be Christian to be Quaker but most are also Christian.)

Not having the experience of some of the Christians here and in particular Catholics - with their strong visual service and use of symbols - I may not be able to understand the depth of the word or from what angle a Catholic may understand \"worship\".

As an Episcopalian - and in those services - I did see \"worship\" more as \"respect\" and \"obedience\" to the Bible which was the word of God.

So my viewpoint on Christianity is that I can equate the ideals with the symbolism and also acknowledge the limitations that I find in the Christian methodology of religion/worship???

But I do not have the full experience - only mine.