Definition of Christianity.

speaking of uneducated my spelling stinks and i forgot to spell check that last post....
:sick:

stevef wrote:

okay it looks like i may have upset some- i think what i was trying to say and what i said didn't mesh so well. i hate it when that happens...

un educated was a bad term and not the best fit for what i was trying to get across.

i'm refering to people who really think if you cut off somones hair you take away thier power or that women are made from a rib or that it was really a serpent telling Eve to eat fruit.

there are people (although maybe posessing a wall of degrees and have an IQ high enough to make stephen hawking look dumb) who would teach us that it all happened word for word. they are really doing a disservice. although the faith they have is impressive, they turn more people away trying to convince them that women are made of rib or what have you.

my prior post was actually a failed attempt to make a defense for the bible that it is a good thing. it has strong moral values and teches love and compassion. some people will take the fairy tale aspect and try to pawn it off as fact. that leads to the thought track that Dhagon Krayt had.

i'm sorry if i made you guys upset.

i'll leave you with still the best thing i've heard said on religion-
\"it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you do\"

Lol. We are here to share views, discuss them and develop for the future. I am sure no one is upset. I got the point though. Thank you for sharing this Brother. MTFBWY

Well, the fact that women are evil is something I don't have a problem believing. You should meet my mother. . . pure evil that woman! J/K

Hmm, someone brought up the that some denominations of christianity/catholicism see the eating of bread and drinking of wine as actual flesh and blood of christ, so what your saying is that on top of everything else, they encourage canabilism? It most definately sounds that way, and I was going to start a whole other post on this, because that lightbulb went off last night as well. How could you say, eat my flesh and drink my blood and that will get you into heaven. I guess Jeffrey Dahmer will be meeting us at the gates huh? I mean if all people are created unto the image of God, he was only doing what he was told was he not?

Remember Br. Hans, I did say take away all the Judgemental Sarcasm, which means replacing zombie with something like reborn or you know whatever. Obviously whoever wrote that paragraph was trying to do as much damage to Christianity as possible. I'm simply trying to have a actual discussion about some of the downfalls of those beliefs.

I do agree with br. steve and br. hans the bible is a great tool to control the populations actions ( I know you didn't say it like that, but its really what you were saying) and sure it may be beneficial if people follow it on a personal scale. Its when they start forcing it on others and damning them with thier own judgement when it becomes more costly than its worth. I do not disagree with anyone trying to better their own life through any religion, however I do disagree with attempting to force it upon others, even if that is somehow construed as part of your belief.

I also agree, that all religious texts are stories, which I though I said already, but maybe not.

And Tom, yes it sounds like something familiar, something else I do not follow, and that is the lightside jedi path. I do agree however to keep your enemies close, its easier to keep track of them, and when you feed them, a little poison won't hurt, you can give the fatal dose when necessary, lol. I do ask this, shouldn't one lead by example? Assuming your answer would be yes, as it should be, why is it ok for your God to judge, but not his creations? It doesn't make sense to me.

DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Hmm, someone brought up the that some denominations of christianity/catholicism see the eating of bread and drinking of wine as actual flesh and blood of christ, so what your saying is that on top of everything else, they encourage canabilism? It most definately sounds that way, and I was going to start a whole other post on this, because that lightbulb went off last night as well. How could you say, eat my flesh and drink my blood and that will get you into heaven. I guess Jeffrey Dahmer will be meeting us at the gates huh? I mean if all people are created unto the image of God, he was only doing what he was told was he not?

Remember Br. Hans, I did say take away all the Judgemental Sarcasm, which means replacing zombie with something like reborn or you know whatever. Obviously whoever wrote that paragraph was trying to do as much damage to Christianity as possible. I'm simply trying to have a actual discussion about some of the downfalls of those beliefs.

I do agree with br. steve and br. hans the bible is a great tool to control the populations actions ( I know you didn't say it like that, but its really what you were saying) and sure it may be beneficial if people follow it on a personal scale. Its when they start forcing it on others and damning them with thier own judgement when it becomes more costly than its worth. I do not disagree with anyone trying to better their own life through any religion, however I do disagree with attempting to force it upon others, even if that is somehow construed as part of your belief.

I also agree, that all religious texts are stories, which I though I said already, but maybe not.

And Tom, yes it sounds like something familiar, something else I do not follow, and that is the lightside jedi path. I do agree however to keep your enemies close, its easier to keep track of them, and when you feed them, a little poison won't hurt, you can give the fatal dose when necessary, lol. I do ask this, shouldn't one lead by example? Assuming your answer would be yes, as it should be, why is it ok for your God to judge, but not his creations? It doesn't make sense to me.

DK

It is right that he should judge because he knows all things, all actions by all people and all of the outcomes that have, do, and will
happen. We on the other hand cannot know these things and so it is not right for us to judge because we do not truly know all these things. We can only live in the moment (Matt. 6:25-36) and do that which we know to be right as per scripture (the word of God).

Now then, Dhagon, are you going to be an equal opportunity questioner? Will you be presenting your questioning of Islam, Judaism, hinduism, buddhism, Ba'haiism, Jainism, anamism, paganism, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, Rastafarianism, Scientology, etc... Or is Christianity the only faith you feel so strongly against?

~Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

I would like to hear an explanation of how Islam has become the hated religion of the world. Isn't it the most followed? How could these people take the koran, and do the horrible, evil things we see everyday? Or is it just retribution for the Crusades? Or a hang over of the cold war?

KieranHalcyon wrote:

I would like to hear an explanation of how Islam has become the hated religion of the world. Isn't it the most followed? How could these people take the koran, and do the horrible, evil things we see everyday? Or is it just retribution for the Crusades? Or a hang over of the cold war?

Actually Christianity is the most practiced religion in the world. The list is as follows:

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.5 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million

Spiritism: 15 million

Judaism: 14 million

Baha'i: 7 million

Jainism: 4.2 million

Shinto: 4 million

Cao Dai: 4 million

Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million

Tenrikyo: 2 million

Neo-Paganism: 1 million

Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand

Rastafarianism: 600 thousand

Scientology: 500 thousand

So 84% of the total population practice a faith of some kind.

Which leads to my next question...What DO you believe Dhagon?


~Chaplain,Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Hmm, someone brought up the that some denominations of christianity/catholicism see the eating of bread and drinking of wine as actual flesh and blood of christ, so what your saying is that on top of everything else, they encourage canabilism? It most definately sounds that way, and I was going to start a whole other post on this, because that lightbulb went off last night as well. How could you say, eat my flesh and drink my blood and that will get you into heaven. I guess Jeffrey Dahmer will be meeting us at the gates huh? I mean if all people are created unto the image of God, he was only doing what he was told was he not?

Remember Br. Hans, I did say take away all the Judgemental Sarcasm, which means replacing zombie with something like reborn or you know whatever. Obviously whoever wrote that paragraph was trying to do as much damage to Christianity as possible. I'm simply trying to have a actual discussion about some of the downfalls of those beliefs.

I do agree with br. steve and br. hans the bible is a great tool to control the populations actions ( I know you didn't say it like that, but its really what you were saying) and sure it may be beneficial if people follow it on a personal scale. Its when they start forcing it on others and damning them with thier own judgement when it becomes more costly than its worth. I do not disagree with anyone trying to better their own life through any religion, however I do disagree with attempting to force it upon others, even if that is somehow construed as part of your belief.

I also agree, that all religious texts are stories, which I though I said already, but maybe not.

And Tom, yes it sounds like something familiar, something else I do not follow, and that is the lightside jedi path. I do agree however to keep your enemies close, its easier to keep track of them, and when you feed them, a little poison won't hurt, you can give the fatal dose when necessary, lol. I do ask this, shouldn't one lead by example? Assuming your answer would be yes, as it should be, why is it ok for your God to judge, but not his creations? It doesn't make sense to me.

DK

Well Br.Dhagon to practise a religion you have to have a relationship with it, an understanding and faith for it. If you don`t, as history has all too often proved, you can try to explain until your blue in the face but nothing will happen. I don`t know who Chris Dahmner is, but following from your argument he must be a cannible; remember I said that CHRIST said (\"this is MY BODY do this in remembrance of ME\") which is different to eating the next person you meet. Come on Br.Dhagon lets not get too pikant here, but if you sent a piece to the CSI laboratory all they would come up with is bread. So if we all get down onto an empirical level this conversation puffs into a cloud of smoke.

Br.Dhagon I accepted the text you sent as it was and tried to reply with an explanation and not sarcasm. How can answering to the nomenclature of Christ`s person as a Zombie by saying that Christians see him rather being the second Adam be sarcastic? Hmmm.

Hmmm maybe I didn`t explain so good, I thought I did (try and take another peek back) but I explained that the Bible was a story and MORE!

PS. I never said that the Bible was a tool to control the people`s actions. I mentioned that it was a book of faith for which many were prepared to give their lives for.

What of free will? Doesn't the Bible teach that as beings of the flesh, we are granted free will. Free will to feel and to believe. I may be mistaken. I have always commented to others that alot of christian beliefs have alot similarities to that of greek or roman mythology.
An example would be, Hercules coming from a human mother and a god named Zeus. Then you have Jesus being in the same way. Now if you look at it, Jesus was born in around 6 BC or 1st century AD (which ever you believe); then you got the Hercules myth concieved more than a thouand years before that. Interesting. They are probably other similarities if you look. I don't want to discredit anyones beliefs, these type of mythical similarities occur in other religions too. The Aboriginies beliefs varied slightly from tribe to tribe, partly because they didn't have a writing system to record them, but rather passing those beliefs by word of mouth.
If anyone ever played telephone( or whatever you called it), the resulting message would be distorted from the original, like telling fish stories. History is loaded with exaggerations . As said in the other comments, there maybe truth behind the fiction.

Decimus wrote:

I have always commented to others that alot of christian beliefs have alot similarities to that of greek or roman mythology.
An example would be, Hercules coming from a human mother and a god named Zeus. Then you have Jesus being in the same way. Now if you look at it, Jesus was born in around 6 BC or 1st century AD (which ever you believe); then you got the Hercules myth concieved more than a thouand years before that. Interesting. They are probably other similarities if you look. I don't want to discredit anyones beliefs, these type of mythical similarities occur in other religions too.

Well actually, Hercules has been around for much longer than Jesus. The tale of Heracles is ancient, like the Iliad or Odyssey.

How else do christianity and mythology relate? Mythology is polytheistic, and shows more of the evils of gods. Christianity is monotheistic, God is good, always (in the new testament anyways)

The characters have several things in common, the exception being that in the bible characters that learn lessons get to live. Mostly in mythology they suffer for eternity or die a painful death.

I think the two have far less in common than we realize. I think if you are going to compare the bible to something, I would take Aesop's Fables. Both are loaded with moral 'fables', and put the lives of the characters in perspective.

Also, I don't know if this is true or not. I have heard that the actual 'story' of Jesus has been around alot longer than we realize. Dating back farther than what we believe. Maybe two thousand years before how it is taught today. Is that true?

KieranHalcyon wrote:

Decimus wrote:

I have always commented to others that alot of christian beliefs have alot similarities to that of greek or roman mythology.
An example would be, Hercules coming from a human mother and a god named Zeus. Then you have Jesus being in the same way. Now if you look at it, Jesus was born in around 6 BC or 1st century AD (which ever you believe); then you got the Hercules myth concieved more than a thouand years before that. Interesting. They are probably other similarities if you look. I don't want to discredit anyones beliefs, these type of mythical similarities occur in other religions too.

Well actually, Hercules has been around for much longer than Jesus. The tale of Heracles is ancient, like the Iliad or Odyssey.

How else do christianity and mythology relate? Mythology is polytheistic, and shows more of the evils of gods. Christianity is monotheistic, God is good, always (in the new testament anyways)

The characters have several things in common, the exception being that in the bible characters that learn lessons get to live. Mostly in mythology they suffer for eternity or die a painful death.

I think the two have far less in common than we realize. I think if you are going to compare the bible to something, I would take Aesop's Fables. Both are loaded with moral 'fables', and put the lives of the characters in perspective.

Also, I don't know if this is true or not. I have heard that the actual 'story' of Jesus has been around alot longer than we realize. Dating back farther than what we believe. Maybe two thousand years before how it is taught today. Is that true?

The Story of Christ as he lived it is only the 2000 years old we know it to be. But there were many prophecies of Christ in the old testement that were 1000 years or more before Christ was Born. Especially the prophecies of Isiah were extremely accurate in telling Christ's story long before his time. See the book of Isiah for more...

~Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

The mention of historical persons such as the Emperor and Govenor of Judea give the New Testament a historical setting. Also the mention of Christ in Roman writings give His person (Christ) an independent witness. Judging from historical occurances (the fall of Jerusalem), and the seven hills of Rome the seemingly fantastic Aopocalypse is given historical significance. This is claimed to have been witten so to preserve the persecuted Christians from death.

Yes, I will be an equal opportunity questioneer, seeing as how I don't believe in any of these religions. The more I learn, the more I question. I do tell you though, I've got much much more to question about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not that its doing any good, because I haven't seen a good convincing argument yet. Regardless, I will move on to another religion for a while, but rest assured I'll be back to this one. Which one? I'm not sure yet, most other religions don't get so mad when you start questioning their beliefs, so it will be less fun, plus I need to actually have someone of that belief system here at the temple to attempt to have this passionate discussion with. Since I don't know everyones personal beliefs that could be difficult, but many like Perris's for example is so very similar to Christianity it would be pointless to argue it, I could use the same arguments. The difference would be taking shots at the details that they believe, which admittidly I don't know alot about yet, so I won't be going there yet. I'll come up with something Tom, so it doesn't seem like I'm hounding you. (Which I'm really not, your just always the most vocal in defending your position)

As far as exactly What I believe. If I were going to catagorise it into a known religion, I would say that Taoism would be the closest, but I have found things in Taoism that I don't necessarily agree with either. Either way, even what I do believe, I don't concider a religion, I view it as a phylosophy. A template if you will. I also believe that what I believe is my own, and no one elses. That no matter how much I believe my beliefs are right, it is everyone's own responsibility to find their own path. I'm sure it is commonly viewed that my constant clashing with mainstream religions is an attempt to get people to believe what I do, but it is not. It is simply to ensure that those who believe, know what and why they believe what they do. That they are not just following the herd, that they have concidered other, and as many possiblilities before making their choice.

Good Day.
DK

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Yes, I will be an equal opportunity questioneer, seeing as how I don't believe in any of these religions. The more I learn, the more I question. I do tell you though, I've got much much more to question about Christianity that doesn't make sense, not that its doing any good, because I haven't seen a good convincing argument yet. Regardless, I will move on to another religion for a while, but rest assured I'll be back to this one. Which one? I'm not sure yet, most other religions don't get so mad when you start questioning their beliefs, so it will be less fun, plus I need to actually have someone of that belief system here at the temple to attempt to have this passionate discussion with. Since I don't know everyones personal beliefs that could be difficult, but many like Perris's for example is so very similar to Christianity it would be pointless to argue it, I could use the same arguments. The difference would be taking shots at the details that they believe, which admittidly I don't know alot about yet, so I won't be going there yet. I'll come up with something Tom, so it doesn't seem like I'm hounding you. (Which I'm really not, your just always the most vocal in defending your position)

As far as exactly What I believe. If I were going to catagorise it into a known religion, I would say that Taoism would be the closest, but I have found things in Taoism that I don't necessarily agree with either. Either way, even what I do believe, I don't concider a religion, I view it as a phylosophy. A template if you will. I also believe that what I believe is my own, and no one elses. That no matter how much I believe my beliefs are right, it is everyone's own responsibility to find their own path. I'm sure it is commonly viewed that my constant clashing with mainstream religions is an attempt to get people to believe what I do, but it is not. It is simply to ensure that those who believe, know what and why they believe what they do. That they are not just following the herd, that they have concidered other, and as many possiblilities before making their choice.

Good Day.
DK

I'm curious, is Christianity the one you have the most to question because it is the most practiced on Earth or because it is the one you know the most about? In fact all Abrahamic faiths (such as Judaism, Islam, Ba'haiism) have so much in common. They share so many values and ethical positions.

~Chaplain, Br. Tom
Servant of the Servants of the Force

Br. Dhagon if you are looking for a good convincing argument as far as religions are concerned, then I think you will have a long wait. Most Religions try to answer to human dilemas and feelings and are not based on a \"mathematical\" type of system.

Christianity's popularity has nothing to do with why I question its beliefs, and only partially because its what I know most. I challenge Christian beliefs most because they more than any other try to convince others that their particular belief is wrong and Christianity is correct. I've never seen or heard of (not saying it doesn't happen, but surely much less) the jewish, or islamic faiths sending missionaries out to third world countries to convert them to boast their numbers. Or for that matter sending them into the streets wearing sandwich board signs telling others of thier impending doom according to Christianity's beliefs. Not to mention knowing as much as I do about Christianity and how many of the churches work and view the outside world, now as an outsider, I can see many of the hypocrocies of it all. It also makes it much easier to see the control trying to be imposed on the people by the religious leaders and community. So view it how you want, I do have a dark spot in my heart for Christianity, but this is not why I question it so thoroughly, I question it because of my experience with the world as a whole and the many things expected of the population with no form of proof and in many cases no explanation.

Also in my readings, the Ba'hai faith is not that similar to Christianity. The Ba'hai believe that all religions have truth and merit and that they all reveal a piece of the puzzle that is the one true religion, to worship the one true deity. I've been around alot of Christians and read a good portion of the Bible, no where did I hear or read anything that resembles a belief of \"all religions are atleast partially right\", in Christianity only Christianity is right. The Ba'hai make much more sense to me, but I still do not believe as they do.

Br. Hans, you are correct, I will be waiting many lifetimes to hear a good convincing argument where religion is concerned, even if they don't use any mathematical system, just a little ounce of proof would be worth a whole book full of words.

DK

Convictions to particular views seems to be a wide spread in the religious world. There are exceptions and of course alot depends on the individual.

In some Islamic counties to convert a Muslim to another faith means the death sentence. Friends of mine went on a holiday to Turkey and at the airport they had to remove the cross hanging on a chain around their necks.

I know that Mahayana Buddhists (Tibetan tradition) believe that Jesus was a good man and even to be illuminated, but that practicing Christians will not be able to escape Samsara. It is only through Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

During my lessons with the Mormons I was told that other Christians can enter the lower levels of Heaven but not into the higher. Because others do not believe in Jesus Christ their chances of Salvation do not look too good.

There are probably more examples which I cannot think of at the moment.

Dhagon Krayt wrote:

Christianity's popularity has nothing to do with why I question its beliefs, and only partially because its what I know most. I challenge Christian beliefs most because they more than any other try to convince others that their particular belief is wrong and Christianity is correct. I've never seen or heard of (not saying it doesn't happen, but surely much less) the jewish, or islamic faiths sending missionaries out to third world countries to convert them to boast their numbers. Or for that matter sending them into the streets wearing sandwich board signs telling others of thier impending doom according to Christianity's beliefs. Not to mention knowing as much as I do about Christianity and how many of the churches work and view the outside world, now as an outsider, I can see many of the hypocrocies of it all. It also makes it much easier to see the control trying to be imposed on the people by the religious leaders and community. So view it how you want, I do have a dark spot in my heart for Christianity, but this is not why I question it so thoroughly, I question it because of my experience with the world as a whole and the many things expected of the population with no form of proof and in many cases no explanation.

Also in my readings, the Ba'hai faith is not that similar to Christianity. The Ba'hai believe that all religions have truth and merit and that they all reveal a piece of the puzzle that is the one true religion, to worship the one true deity. I've been around alot of Christians and read a good portion of the Bible, no where did I hear or read anything that resembles a belief of \"all religions are atleast partially right\", in Christianity only Christianity is right. The Ba'hai make much more sense to me, but I still do not believe as they do.

Br. Hans, you are correct, I will be waiting many lifetimes to hear a good convincing argument where religion is concerned, even if they don't use any mathematical system, just a little ounce of proof would be worth a whole book full of words.

DK

If I remember correctly I said they share much in Ethical views and Moral convictions. I didn't mention anything about specific beliefs because of course they have large variations...

now with regard to the others...Muslims for sure should be the best of missionaries. The questions as I understand it comes out like this right:

Why aren’t Islamic missionaries active the way Christian missionaries are? Won’t Islam grow much faster and misunderstandings removed if there are good scholars to preach the faith?

and the answer is:

It’s true that Muslims today are not as active as Christians in propagating their religion, though the Muslims are expected by Islam to be the best of missionaries. Islam is a religion that should have the maximum number of missionaries because Da'wah (propagation of one’s faith) is obligatory / compulsory in Islam. The Holy Qur'an says:

“Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious.”
(Al-Qur'an 16:125)

But unfortunately Muslims are not doing the job. Moreover, there is virulent propaganda about Islam and Muslims by the international media. Today the number of misconceptions about Islam has reached an endemic and epidemic level. It is the duty of Muslims to clarify these misconceptions and to present the pure Islamic teachings, based on the Qur'an and the authentic traditions of the prophet (pbuh).

But irrespective whether the Muslims do the job or not, Allah has promised to make his Deen (Al-Islam) prevail over all other ways of life and all other ‘isms’. Allah says in the Qur'an:

“It is He who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is Allah for a Witness.”
(Al-Qur'an 48:28)

A similar message is mentioned in Al-Qur'an 9:33 & 61:9.

It should be borne in mind that Allah is not in need of Muslims in order to make his Deen prevail. He, however, has given an opportunity to do a prophet’s job and to earn a prophet’s reward.

Allah says in the Qur'an:

‘Who is better in speech than one who calls (men) to Allah, works righteousness and says, \"I am of those who bow in Islam\"?’

“The calling of the church in every culture is to be mission. That is, the work of the church is not to be an agent or servant of the culture. The churches’ business is not to maintain freedom or to promote wealth or to help a political party or to serve as the moral guide to culture. The church’s mission is to be the presence of the kingdom. . . . The church’s mission is to show the world what it looks like when a community of people live under the reign of God” (Robert Webber, The Younger Evangelicals, 2002, 133).