The Topic of Censorship and Banning

So we lock threads immediately for using politically correct gender terms, but not if someone is being openly insulted?

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Goken wrote: I don't think there needs to be any announcement of preferred pronoun unless a person wishes to do so. There really shouldn't be a need for it. Really a pronoun mistake can be cleared up in two sentences.

"I actually prefer [pronoun]"
"Ok."
Done. Any more than that is a waste of time for person 1 and if person 2 can't be ok with it we have ways to deal with them, as we've seen.

It astonishes me that this needs to be a conversation, and not just here, but anywhere.

I find it ridiculous a thread was locked because someone was referred to as "they" lol

Cause that's exactly the ridiculous nature at where this all sprang from, not ze, not zer, not he, not she, "they"....

How many times have we, and do we continue to use this word for people when not even realizing it?

It's not an issue with free speech as nearly as it is one concerning control...

I don't think that's why the thread was locked. But it's not an issue with free speech OR conrol. It's an issue of respect to call a person by a prefered pronoun.

Are you saying that because you'd disagree with the reason if that was the case?

Because that's the exact reason it was locked, over the use of the pronoun "they"...

Sorry I went back and looked and you're partially right. (link) That was one reason stated but not the ONLY reason. It all stacked up and contributed.

In that thread in paticular, I don't know if it was brought up that Kyrin prefers female pronouns. If it was, it's disrespectful to continue with different pronouns, even "they". They is a decent default if you don't know their gender preference. Although technically against proper English (as it's plural) but I don't think anyone will hold that against you lol. But if the individual's preference is known, use it. Basic human respect. At least here. Although it should be anywhere.

Kyrin never made it clear to my knowledge, nether did the council I might add before the thread was locked...

Arisaig wrote: So we lock threads immediately for using politically correct gender terms, but not if someone is being openly insulted?

It's not about political correctness either Ari. It's basic courtesy. Repetitively ignoring preferred is a deliberate insult hun.

I'm sorry I've been handling things offline lately and haven't been able to keep up. If there's something I missed you feel needs my attention, please PM me. Open insults need addressing. Hidden insults do too for that matter.

We're trying to get a better handle on things like this. We're learning. We're going too have too ask for patience, understanding, and communication. This is from all sides. Good mutual communication is vital to a place like this.

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Goken wrote: I don't think there needs to be any announcement of preferred pronoun unless a person wishes to do so. There really shouldn't be a need for it. Really a pronoun mistake can be cleared up in two sentences.

"I actually prefer [pronoun]"
"Ok."
Done. Any more than that is a waste of time for person 1 and if person 2 can't be ok with it we have ways to deal with them, as we've seen.

It astonishes me that this needs to be a conversation, and not just here, but anywhere.

I find it ridiculous a thread was locked because someone was referred to as "they" lol

Cause that's exactly the ridiculous nature at where this all sprang from, not ze, not zer, not he, not she, "they"....

How many times have we, and do we continue to use this word for people when not even realizing it?

It's not an issue with free speech as nearly as it is one concerning control...

I don't think that's why the thread was locked. But it's not an issue with free speech OR conrol. It's an issue of respect to call a person by a prefered pronoun.

Are you saying that because you'd disagree with the reason if that was the case?

Because that's the exact reason it was locked, over the use of the pronoun "they"...

Sorry I went back and looked and you're partially right. (link) That was one reason stated but not the ONLY reason. It all stacked up and contributed.

In that thread in paticular, I don't know if it was brought up that Kyrin prefers female pronouns. If it was, it's disrespectful to continue with different pronouns, even "they". They is a decent default if you don't know their gender preference. Although technically against proper English (as it's plural) but I don't think anyone will hold that against you lol. But if the individual's preference is known, use it. Basic human respect. At least here. Although it should be anywhere.

Kyrin never made it clear to my knowledge, nether did the council I might add before the thread was locked...

Know how I know? I asked

But on the locking specifically, it wasn't the only reason. Nor the largest in my feelings. But say it was. If it was locked before preference was known and only in those grounds, I would agree that that is not good reason for locking a thread. If it continued then something would need doing

On freedom of speech:

I have what appears to be an unusual interpretation of freedom of speech. For example i think the idea of language registers is garbage, history shows us that poor people's language became 'bad' while rich people's language is 'good'. As such i don't mind 'cussing', an inexistent concept in cultures that did not experience the rise of the bourgeoisie (the bourgeois being people who chose to become judgmental a-holes, unlike nobility who were born in it and can at least claim they don't know any better)

However all freedoms have limits, and those limits are other people's freedoms. For as long as i get referred to as a male chauvinistic pig and the like, i will refer to people with any pronoun or other words i feel like using. BUT
There is a difference between calling a black person nigger and dismissing them because they're black. I can call my best friend a 'fucking paki' and value him and what he has to say. The problem isn't to do with speech but with attitude.
We could prohibit half the dictionary and still see people dismiss others because of their race, their sex, their tastes, the way they communicate, etc.

I think it's fair to say i am the resident anti-feminist. I'm a man and i don't think it's insulting for someone to call me a woman or use a female pronoun to refer to me. It is simply inaccurate to do so. As such i would personally urge anyone who thinks identification as one sex or another is insulting to check their sexism, which coming from me should be a rather loud wakeup call. But i digress.

In regards to totjo policies:

I would prefer a return to the days when we could say what we wanted, much like i do with my friends, and per my the first part of this post i think the policy of restricting specific words or registers has miserably failed at maintaining peace and order here. BUT

The purpose of totjo should be obvious in its name. I am not implying that certain words belong or not in a jedi temple, but that certain attitudes belong (or not).

This isn't the temple of 'i have nothing better to do than reply with my used douchebag' order. You can go on ebay, buy a used douchebag for a dollar, and bash your keyboard with it. Just not on the totjo website. That activity is disruptive to totjo.


As such i think that currently, it's fair to say that there is no purpose in skirting the rules. You can bleech your mouth so sparkly clean it becomes invisible, it won't matter. If your presence here is disruptive, you will be escorted out. The current council is to my knowledge the largest ever, it hasn't been going very long and already it experiences fatigue. We have people telling the pastor (totjo's spiritual leader) not to 'follow' them around totjo's 'premises'. Etc...

We used to have a 'if you don't like it here you dont have to stay' policy. It is making a comeback. If you dislike this church, we urge you to find one that suits you better. If you dislike the pastor, go places where there is a different pastor, or no pastors if that is what you prefer.

On the other hand if you do like it here, it is very doubtful the people you're having a good time with will escort you out. It really is that simple.

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:

Zenchi wrote:

Goken wrote: I don't think there needs to be any announcement of preferred pronoun unless a person wishes to do so. There really shouldn't be a need for it. Really a pronoun mistake can be cleared up in two sentences.

"I actually prefer [pronoun]"
"Ok."
Done. Any more than that is a waste of time for person 1 and if person 2 can't be ok with it we have ways to deal with them, as we've seen.

It astonishes me that this needs to be a conversation, and not just here, but anywhere.

I find it ridiculous a thread was locked because someone was referred to as "they" lol

Cause that's exactly the ridiculous nature at where this all sprang from, not ze, not zer, not he, not she, "they"....

How many times have we, and do we continue to use this word for people when not even realizing it?

It's not an issue with free speech as nearly as it is one concerning control...

I don't think that's why the thread was locked. But it's not an issue with free speech OR conrol. It's an issue of respect to call a person by a prefered pronoun.

Are you saying that because you'd disagree with the reason if that was the case?

Because that's the exact reason it was locked, over the use of the pronoun "they"...

Sorry I went back and looked and you're partially right. (link) That was one reason stated but not the ONLY reason. It all stacked up and contributed.

In that thread in paticular, I don't know if it was brought up that Kyrin prefers female pronouns. If it was, it's disrespectful to continue with different pronouns, even "they". They is a decent default if you don't know their gender preference. Although technically against proper English (as it's plural) but I don't think anyone will hold that against you lol. But if the individual's preference is known, use it. Basic human respect. At least here. Although it should be anywhere.

Kyrin never made it clear to my knowledge, nether did the council I might add before the thread was locked...

Know how I know? I asked

But on the locking specifically, it wasn't the only reason. Nor the largest in my feelings. But say it was. If it was locked before preference was known and only in those grounds, I would agree that that is not good reason for locking a thread. If it continued then something would need doing

Lol,

We talked too, and Kyrin laughed when I asked about it, was very ambiguous. Which led me to to come to an understanding that Kyrin was using it as a means to troll aggressively...

But now I know, thanks for the clarification

Zenchi wrote:

Kit wrote:
Know how I know? I asked

But on the locking specifically, it wasn't the only reason. Nor the largest in my feelings. But say it was. If it was locked before preference was known and only in those grounds, I would agree that that is not good reason for locking a thread. If it continued then something would need doing

Lol,

We talked too, and Kyrin laughed when I asked about it, was very ambiguous. Which led me to to come to an understanding that Kyrin was using it as a means to troll aggressively...

But now I know, thanks for the clarification

Haha well it looks like I get to put my foot in my mouth again I'm sorry. I should have thought about interactions you've had that I haven't been privy to rather than assuming.

I swear we had this conversation this time last year. Feels like it was all the same names too.


Starting to feel like the bathwater is getting a little cold.....

Rosalyn J wrote: These are the reasons I gave:
1. This conversation should have happened with only council and those concerned. I understand that it became a public conversation because we did not make an announcement.
2. This conversation happened in public in a thread she can see and read, but cannot respond to
3. And lastly, we are referring to her in a way she does not appreciate.
The most important reasons for locking the thread were one and two. And I did say that I would like these sort of questions directed to Council in the future

#1 is just silly, when someone get's banned its very obvious by the change of their name color on the forums, its hard for that to not go unnoticed and to be talked about. People will always be curious about sudden changes, especially unpredictable ones. Yes it should have had been a conversation between council and those concerned but to believe that public talk wouldn't happen in PM's or Chat, or discord or anywhere else is silly and most importantly uncontrollable. Just because it's locked there, doesn't mean the conversation stops it just moves elsewhere. At least in public view it can be watched and monitored and more importantly understood.

#2. Kyrin earned that situation via Kyrin's actions. Kyrin will learn to follow rules if kyrin ever gets unbanned and come back if kyrin really wants to avoid it.

#3 Wow people have referred to me in ways that I don't appreciate but I never saw anyone get banned for it and I would be upset if they did. Though I do kind of align with some of peterson's arguments on the subject. as has been said before the pronoun's of choice is at request, not requirement. It's one thing to be polite and considerate and another to be forced with adverse consequences just to please someone's personal identity and ego, of which if its at such a flux and weak foundation then needs its something that needs to be worked on, not blindly thrown a wall between.

Not that my say has any matter but I'm disappointed in the council actions if #3 was truly the cause of it.

Tellahane wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote: These are the reasons I gave:
1. This conversation should have happened with only council and those concerned. I understand that it became a public conversation because we did not make an announcement.
2. This conversation happened in public in a thread she can see and read, but cannot respond to
3. And lastly, we are referring to her in a way she does not appreciate.
The most important reasons for locking the thread were one and two. And I did say that I would like these sort of questions directed to Council in the future

#1 is just silly, when someone get's banned its very obvious by the change of their name color on the forums, its hard for that to not go unnoticed and to be talked about. People will always be curious about sudden changes, especially unpredictable ones. Yes it should have had been a conversation between council and those concerned but to believe that public talk wouldn't happen in PM's or Chat, or discord or anywhere else is silly and most importantly uncontrollable. Just because it's locked there, doesn't mean the conversation stops it just moves elsewhere. At least in public view it can be watched and monitored and more importantly understood.

#2. Kyrin earned that situation via Kyrin's actions. Kyrin will learn to follow rules if kyrin ever gets unbanned and come back if kyrin really wants to avoid it.

#3 Wow people have referred to me in ways that I don't appreciate but I never saw anyone get banned for it and I would be upset if they did. Though I do kind of align with some of peterson's arguments on the subject. as has been said before the pronoun's of choice is at request, not requirement. It's one thing to be polite and considerate and another to be forced with adverse consequences just to please someone's personal identity and ego, of which if its at such a flux and weak foundation then needs its something that needs to be worked on, not blindly thrown a wall between.

Not that my say has any matter but I'm disappointed in the council actions if #3 was truly the cause of it.

#1 we're talking about this one. It's a tough call because we strongly believe in "Publicly Praise. privately punish.". But you're right, banning isn't something that can keep quiet. Especially when it's involving new rules or lines, or any other reason that's not obvious for banning someone. If we do an announcement and why, we're airing out dirty laundry and making it more difficult for the individual to come back from that. If we just do an announcement and reply to PM questions, that leaves the grape vine still open and a likelihood of spawning rumors. If we say nothing, that keeps the rumor mill in full operation and it gets plenty of business here just as much as anywhere.

On that note, I'm interested in hearing suggestions on that since I'm seriously at a loss on how to properly handle future bannings.

#2 I believe this was brought up because I think we in general don't like to speak of people behind their backs. We tend to want to be upfront about it and not having the individual (Kyrin in this case) involved in the conversation means we're just poking at rumors, perceptions, and examples. I feel it crossed farther past decent dialog and into picking at a person. But I wasn't here for much longer past my one post in that thread, I had to catch up after it was locked.

#3 was not the only cause. Reading Ros' post, I can see two things. That she was bringing the point up because it needed to be said, or it was a consideration along with the other reasons.

The reason pronouns are important are because they are a piece of us. I think just after a name, most people see themselves in those pronouns as an identity like our avatars. As much as many of us here identify as Jedi. I use to get seriously angry when people assumed I was male. Even with a female name and (in the case of games) female avatar. Ended up making a joke of it later, and now I couldn't care less. But I do understand the desire. We put a lot of stock in the kinds of energies we want to cultivate both within ourselves and in the person we show the world. Is it a request to be called by a term? yes. It's my request. It's dismissive at best, insulting at worst if my request is ignored. This is a simple case to be sure. And being human, we're not simple creatures. There's more involved (like emotions! damn things ) I get that there's more insulting things to be called but in most cases, it doesn't take a lot of effort to stick in pronouns. Well...unless you're as forgetful as me

Why does this particular subject has such vehement following right now?