What does being a member of the group "Jedi" mean to you?

Khaos wrote:

Everybody chooses the path they think is much suited for them , i am me , i knew stuff before i came here , i am an active particiapant and i am still learning , patience and resilience , and i learn here as much here as in real life.

Bully for you.

Still, in reading the responses...I come to another observation.

No one speaks of this path as something...precious to them.

I know I can expect a Gollum reference...

Still, I have worked damn hard in my path. Blood,sweat, tears, the whole bit.

It is not something that is as good as the next thing. It could not be "by some other name."

Its important to me, the label of Sith, of passing on, and hopefully adding to what has been given to me to others, to continue to pursue my own way in it.

Spiritual materialism? Perhaps, but I am in no way spiritual.

Its not like the Lions Club, Freemasons, or anything else.

There is no other path like it, and no other path for me, by any other name.

Its just interesting how many life paths can simply be tossed off as nothing, or old clothing, refuse.

I see it as wasteful, not unlike littering, and just as damaging ultimately to a populace.

I have come across many Jedi, and I hear the claims of betterment, but, when the rubber meets the road that is not the case.

I mean, if thats the level of commitment you put into something, I cannot imagine you are doing differently offline, and the results will be mediocre, at best.

If Jedi doesnt mean all that much, and it seems it does not, then how much meaning are you putting into it? Or anything?

Extending that past just yourself, because its not about you but others...How much to they get from said lack of meaning?

Aaaah i love being a Jedi , because being a Jedi means more to me than being a social worker for instance which i am aswell , but i find it does not reflect the work i put into being someone who does the right thing for the right reasons ! How much meaning do i put in helping others ? A lot ! And now i have a name i can share it under ..Jedi , i could call that precious ..

MartaLina wrote:
Where do you read i am not improving myself , is not that what i am doing here by studying here ? Dont put stuff in my tekst that i did not put there please.

I did not read that you were not improving yourself in your comment nor did I imply that in my question to you. Lets back up the train for a sec here because I'm sensing a lot of hostility in your reply. Why is that? This is a positive input, opinion thread on what you feel draws you to the group Jedi. I was not attacking you nor demeaning you in any way. I was trying to present a deeper side/different slant to your comment and I expected your reply to be either a constructive challenge to that reply or an affirmation that my response could in some ways be accurate. I did not expect you to imply that I was attacking you in some way as that was never my intent.

In this place you call yourself a Jedi, as do I, and yet you chose to assume something about my intent that was not true and you acted on that assumption instead of trying to clarify that intent. I'm curious now, why is it you felt I was trying to attack or demean your position in some way? If you did feel that way, why did you not ask for clarity instead of jumping to conclusions and firing back? You don't know me, you have never cared to get to know me beyond those times our paths may have crossed casually on the board. If there is some underlying philosophy that binds you and I at a basic level as Jedi, why not take the road of "benefit of the doubt" instead of assuming the worst and "pulling guns"?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

MartaLina wrote:
Where do you read i am not improving myself , is not that what i am doing here by studying here ? Dont put stuff in my tekst that i did not put there please.

I did not read that you were not improving yourself in your comment nor did I imply that in my question to you. Lets back up the train for a sec here because I'm sensing a lot of hostility in your reply. Why is that? This is a positive input, opinion thread on what you feel draws you to the group Jedi. I was not attacking you nor demeaning you in any way. I was trying to present a deeper side/different slant to your comment and I expected your reply to be either a constructive challenge to that reply or an affirmation that my response could in some ways be accurate. I did not expect you to imply that I was attacking you in some way as that was never my intent.

In this place you call yourself a Jedi, as do I, and yet you chose to assume something about my intent that was not true and you acted on that assumption instead of trying to clarify that intent. I'm curious now, why is it you felt I was trying to attack or demean your position in some way? If you did feel that way, why did you not ask for clarity instead of jumping to conclusions and firing back? You don't know me, you have never cared to get to know me beyond those times our paths may have crossed casually on the board. If there is some underlying philosophy that binds you and I at a basic level as Jedi, why not take the road of "benefit of the doubt" instead of assuming the worst and "pulling guns"?

It must be in the written language then because i assumed that you assumed something about my intend loll , no hostility intented , your assumption of not improving lead to my remark , please explain what you meant with : I understand that philosophy but at the core of that isnt that still about improving yourself?
This sentence implies that one is not improving here or for the wrong reasons , if that is not what you meant , i am sorry

Khaos wrote: When I first met Sith, I saw and extreme ownership of oneself, and results directly translating into measurable progress towards one goals.
Not novel of course, but at the same time, no other path spoke to me in a language that made sense to me.

The culture around it called to me, and yes, we are all individuals, but there is always a collective culture.
You could fail, and be wrong.

In that there was an accountability that I did not see in the Jedi.
You couldnt be wrong, and no one really could decide on a common language. It was messy and unorganized.
Not so much with the Sith, and that is why I chose it.

It seems that "Sith" goals are quite a bit different than "Jedi" ones in your opinion. Many Jedi here have said they pursue self improvement in many aspects of their lives but that seems to be a goal you describe as vacuous. So what sorts of goals do Sith pursue, what sorts of training would one get at a Sith temple? How does one measure progress towards a Sith goal?

You also seem to validate a position I have taken in this thread that generally "Jedi" cant seem to agree upon anything either spiritually or doctrinally. But you describe Sith as not having that problem. It seems you are saying that Sith agree on a specific philosophy and from that a common doctrine is derived and this is an underlying unity that all Sith can unite behind. But my question is what authority decides these things and who is it that enforces these positions?

Sith mentality seems to be very close to what an atheist satanist would believe. Would you characterize Sith as something similar to that? if so why not just call yourself a Satanist instead of a Sith? Why the distinction in terms? What is it about Sith that is unique?

MartaLina wrote:
It must be in the written language then because i assumed that you assumed something about my intend loll , no hostility intented , your assumption of not improving lead to my remark , please explain what you meant with : I understand that philosophy but at the core of that isnt that still about improving yourself?
This sentence implies that one is not improving here or for the wrong reasons , if that is not what you meant , i am sorry

Not at all Marta, In fact if you read through my previous posts on this thread I think you will see that I find a common theme among all "Jedi" as being on a self imposed path of self improvement. That is not in question as it is one of a Jedis most basic underlying philosophies and of course, as an active apprentice on this board, I count you in that number. In fact even more so because of your status here. I'm sorry as well if i said anything that implied I felt to the contrary.

My intent in this thread is to get to that most basic underlying philosophy that binds us all as Jedi. Some of the discussion in this thread has been about action a Jedi might undertake as that philosophy - for example helping others. Those are all very valid concepts but for each of us those actions vary, sometimes quite dramatically. So I am trying to get beyond action to the philosophy behind the action,. So when you said your path as a Jedi leads you to help others before yourself I was trying to ask you why you feel you have those actionable priorities? Do you feel they are a byproduct of your drive for self improvement and do you feel that drive is a universal trait among all Jedi that motives their individual paths and subsequent priorities/actions?

That was all lol Sorry if I was vague.

I'm not good at making things clear, but for me I thinks its the likely emergence of the best set of pragmatic tools applicable to, at least, humans. In other words the 'one true' religion :laugh:
Lol, just kidding kinda. But it won't be dogmatic or prescriptive beyond the barest minimum of what is required for it to be effective as an individual and experiential path!!! With its capacity for results being its proof of maturation at some point in humanities future as science improves and spirituality refines alongside it. Where we are now is not there, by a long shot, but working towards it.

Compared to most other pathways which are focused on historical symbols and practises, drenched in static historical culture, Jediism to me is about the best from the past only and exploring the possibilities to get the best results with an eye and focus to the future to grow the path. You can call it by any name, but to me, the fiction (at least the original trilogy) represented the remnants of that, in a future that had been undermined by inhumanity (for want of a more interstellar word) - thus representing the focus, commitment and to lesser extent connecting back to our mythological basis for spiritual evolution and broadening conscious awareness - hence the association. Which is why Sith realism is a bit incoherent and more like dark Jediism to me (which is fine, there is some groovy symbols and practises there which have real import into Jediism IMO as introductory material to get people started on making progress).

So therefore the nature of its individual application and minimal dogma gives the impression of incoherence in the Jedi path, but in fact to me its the best vehicle for growing and exploring applied spirituality and pragmatism without unnecessary borders or boundaries. Unless you disagree with the doctrine, or cannot understand the contextual meaning inferred by its relationships - in which case it might be impediment to ones growth!!! We're each different though, and I don't think the doctrine is meant to be a limiting influence, but a supporting one.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Khaos wrote: When I first met Sith, I saw and extreme ownership of oneself, and results directly translating into measurable progress towards one goals.
Not novel of course, but at the same time, no other path spoke to me in a language that made sense to me.

The culture around it called to me, and yes, we are all individuals, but there is always a collective culture.
You could fail, and be wrong.

In that there was an accountability that I did not see in the Jedi.
You couldnt be wrong, and no one really could decide on a common language. It was messy and unorganized.
Not so much with the Sith, and that is why I chose it.

It seems that "Sith" goals are quite a bit different than "Jedi" ones in your opinion. Many Jedi here have said they pursue self improvement in many aspects of their lives but that seems to be a goal you describe as vacuous. So what sorts of goals do Sith pursue, what sorts of training would one get at a Sith temple? How does one measure progress towards a Sith goal?

You also seem to validate a position I have taken in this thread that generally "Jedi" cant seem to agree upon anything either spiritually or doctrinally. But you describe Sith as not having that problem. It seems you are saying that Sith agree on a specific philosophy and from that a common doctrine is derived and this is an underlying unity that all Sith can unite behind. But my question is what authority decides these things and who is it that enforces these positions?

Sith mentality seems to be very close to what an atheist satanist would believe. Would you characterize Sith as something similar to that? if so why not just call yourself a Satanist instead of a Sith? Why the distinction in terms? What is it about Sith that is unique?

Lots of questions. No exploration of mine.

Fine.

I dont know any atheist Satanists,so I can make no comparison. The Satanists I do know do not believe in any deity I am aware of, so the atheist tag seems superfluous..

That said, Satanists as a whole seem more hedonistic. As to where Sith are not.

Getting what you want doesnt mean doing what you want.

There is a lot more self-discipline in the Sith path

So, I dont call myself a Satanist because I am not one.

I can only gather that Satanist, is a path you do know, and so seek the most superficial common denominators that you assume about mine without the same knowledge because I did not give a glowing observation about the Jedi path. Because otherwise it has not bearing in this conversation.

However, I did not insinuate that the Jedi path was like any other path. Other Jedi did that. I simply stated that is seems no one cares about it. With reason, people here regularly state how insignificant it is to them.

So, what makes the Sith path unique? Unique to what?

I stated Sith share a common culture, yes.

Jedi seems to be whatever you want it to be.

With Sith, no, that is not the case at all.

What authority decides?

I do, at least at those sites I am head of.

Of course, I am not alone, but at the same time, yes, those who are leaders in the said path are such for a reason.

Now, Jedi on the other hand, always ask "Well who are you to judge,etc"

As head of the D.A. for example, if you dont want to be a Sith, but just want to do your own thing, then you dont want to be a Sith, and I dont allow you to join. Its really that simple.

I suppose now would come the argument of what about individuality.

It isnt a problem for those that are not insecure in there individuality. Only those with a weak ego have a problem with authority.

Its called having a student mind.

If you are already overflowing with your own knowing, you are not prepared to actually learn.

Individuality is not simply copy and pasting old habits, and skillsets and calling it something else to make yourself feel better.

As for goals.

No, Sith do not seek "Self improvement"

One measures progress in achievement in getting what they want.

The training you would get, would be specific to what it is you want.

The methodology is common. It is the code.

Passion- I want X

Strength- What traits, skills, etc, do I need to build as a prerequisite to getting what I want.

Power-Putting those traits, skills, etc, into action into your sphere of influence to get what you want.

Victory- I really shouldnt have to explain this. Its achievement, getting what you want.

Using that methodology, you can clearly see the broad method of measurement.

Each individual wants different things, so the specific measurements will be different for each and are mapped out as such as they go through their training. I cannot generalize such an individual thing. However, each step takes you closer to your goal in a tangible way.

Which is another reason we do not run into problems of authority, or individuality.

First, there is a vetting process for attitude. I and those who help me lead refuse people regularly. Those of your members that are at the F.A as well can attest to it. Even then, you are observed for a month, if not more before actual admission into the Sith path. Actions speak louder than words, and in forums, its your actions we want to hear about. Not how many other philosophies you have studied, or your recent morality problem. Dark? Light? Evil? Good? These are not conversations worth having. I am not here to teach you or help you with something an adult should know.

Then there is the case that I want you to achieve what you want.

The code, the language, the culture, is what makes us uniquely Sith.

To which, if you want to know more of that, it requires a lot more walking and less talking.

Well, some talking, but I think you get my point.

Passion- I want X

Strength- What traits, skills, etc, do I need to build as a prerequisite to getting what I want.

Power-Putting those traits, skills, etc, into action into your sphere of influence to get what you want.

Victory- I really shouldnt have to explain this. Its achievement, getting what you want.

I really love this! What a great way of putting the code in understanding Khaos May I quote you?

Trisskar wrote:

Passion- I want X

Strength- What traits, skills, etc, do I need to build as a prerequisite to getting what I want.

Power-Putting those traits, skills, etc, into action into your sphere of influence to get what you want.

Victory- I really shouldnt have to explain this. Its achievement, getting what you want.

I really love this! What a great way of putting the code in understanding Khaos May I quote you?

Well, you just did :laugh:

Of course.

No one speaks of this path as something...precious to them.

In some ways that might be sort of the point.

Being "A Jedi" has no value within an of itself.
It's not catholicism or islam, there's no painting on the wall so the first thing a guest sees is that you're a good and dedicated follower of A, B, or C.

You can't console yourself with "At least I'm a Jedi" - the "Path", the mindset, the focus has no inherent worth.

I would not expect anyone to speak of "Being a Jedi" as having a strong value to them as you do of whatever you do, the title is just...an aid to describing a philosophy, not something to be achieved - You can't reach your final evolutionary form of Ultimate-Mega-Jedi-tron and rest easy.

As for

Jedi seems to be whatever you want it to be.

I think you deal with this well enough yourself

With Sith, no, that is not the case at all.
What authority decides?
I do, at least at those sites I am head of.

(Bold mine) - So there are Sith about with different systems or beliefs to you? Well dang. The whole concept falls over then! :laugh:

To which, if you want to know more of that, it requires a lot more walking and less talking.

Most things do - but that's the way of the world - I've met plenty Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Mechanics, Tax accountants, Shop Assistants who are all about the title (and occasionally the paycheck), but really don't meet any kind of standard you'd expect or desire

If a few Jedi take the name but don't actually do it well - Same as bad shop assistants - I take my business elsewhere, but whether I like it or, I can't expunge them from the world.

First, there is a vetting process for attitude. I and those who help me lead refuse people regularly.

There are pros and cons to this.
I think the world needs more vetting, we are currently in a very "accept everyone" sort of mood, which means you do get a lot of trash, and once the trash is in the door it can be difficult to sweep out.
On the other hand, it can also be valuable to introduce new and non traditional people/things/methods/thoughts into your "group" (family, friends, workplace, pasta sauce recipes). I don't know what your vetting system is, I'll assume it works for you, and I'm sure you're all bright people so you will adjust it as you go to ensure the vitality of your organisation.


It seems, as it often does when reading this stuff, that everyone is dodging around the same damn point but using different words to explain it.


(Off topic a bit, as I don't want to get derailed too far - but if I got that funny little gold and red book with a big S on the front of it, would it more or less describe your Sith beliefs to me? )

Khaos wrote:

Trisskar wrote:

Passion- I want X

Strength- What traits, skills, etc, do I need to build as a prerequisite to getting what I want.

Power-Putting those traits, skills, etc, into action into your sphere of influence to get what you want.

Victory- I really shouldnt have to explain this. Its achievement, getting what you want.

I really love this! What a great way of putting the code in understanding Khaos May I quote you?

Well, you just did :laugh:

Of course.

haha! Smartie Pants

Khaos wrote: I dont know any atheist Satanists,so I can make no comparison. The Satanists I do know do not believe in any deity I am aware of, so the atheist tag seems superfluous..

That said, Satanists as a whole seem more hedonistic. As to where Sith are not.

Getting what you want doesnt mean doing what you want.

Actually there are quite a few theistic Satanic organizations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism

Hence the reason for my qualification. I did not think you believed in such things as “The Force” as a sentient entity. I was actually the one that insinuated the Jedi path was similar to others paths like Taoism. So I was simply trying to clarify that for Sith as well. So your right, I made the simplest of comparisons so that we may delve deeper and I can appreciate the distinction you bring up between Sith and Satanism so enough said there.

You say that Sith share a common culture but that only seems to go as far as any one particular Site. I take it from your comments that other sites may have different locally shared cultures. If that is true it would seem the neither the Sith or the Jedi have a universal shared culture and either path follower can be whatever he/she wants to be to a great extent. Unless of course there is some sort of multi-site council or something?

As for the individual Sith path and its philosophy of “getting what you want”, I’m assuming you mean material things? Are those typically short term or long term or some combo of goals? For example short term goals would be something like getting a new car, or changing jobs or getting that raise? Or are they longer term like paying of a real estate purchase, becoming president of your company, or achieving a 6 figure salary by retirement? Or am I mistaking what you mean by “Getting what you want?”

You mention that Sith do not sit around and discuss philosophy – good and evil etc. But I wonder if there are any boundaries in how you pursue “what you want”? For example can you use deception, coercion, even sex or other such things in your pursuit? Is vengeance a valid pursuit? I’m just curious on this point, you know, how close real Sith are to the stereotype and all. Just a point of observation, if these things are off the table as far as achieving your goals it would seem that even though you don’t talk about morality you do use it – or is it “any means available” to achieve your goals?

Lastly you say that Sith do not seek self-improvement but is that really the case? Of course Jedi seek a spiritual self-improvement or a character improvement through their training but don’t Sith also seek self-improvement only in a material sense? If I am understanding correctly in their pursuit of “What they want” they are trying to improve their station in life. Better job, better money, nicer house. I would assume this would extend to relationships as well? Maybe they seek a spouse or something like that? Aren’t these all things that improve themselves only from a material standpoint?

I haven't been here that long--still kind of new. But, since I first encountered the concept of the Force back in 1977, it has been my answer/explanation for how I view existence. Being a member of a group of Jedi's is thrilling to me because I have the opportunity to meet others of like mind. That being said, it is also exciting because I have met so many people with many different views on what it means to be a Jedi and what the Force is. I love diversity.

Which this is strange, over the weekend I was looking over the other Jedi websites out there and I found it very discouraging. Everyone thinks that their approach to being a Jedi or Jediism is the most correct and the others have it wrong. I don't think this is a healthy view. We should be more like Sufism. There are so many different schools of thought, and so many different ways to approach it, that many Sufis are often initiated into multiple schools. And some schools are actually an amalgamation of several different schools. I think this is how our Jedi community at large should behave. We should be more accepting and welcoming of other Jedi schools of thought. There should be comaraderie between the different Jedi groups out here. A sense of respect for each one's individual contribution to the greater identity that is Jedi.

Taavi wrote: Which this is strange, over the weekend I was looking over the other Jedi websites out there and I found it very discouraging. Everyone thinks that their approach to being a Jedi or Jediism is the most correct and the others have it wrong. I don't think this is a healthy view.

While I agree the members of the community as a whole have no real to say who's way is better than the other. I do feel it is important for groups to establish a touch of pride in their work. There are alot of....toxic....groups out there that should be warned against. At some point in the game it is important for a group to stand up and say "Hey. This place is legit and here is why."

Also have to keep in mind...A sense of superiority is found in any religion or group minded party. It is human nature to feel ones own way is the better way. Just how it is I feel it does one better to just accept that it is there and will remain there....than to say "Its not healthy and we should do it this other way instead." Because then....you are just doing what they do haha

Just something to think about.

Taavi wrote: Which this is strange, over the weekend I was looking over the other Jedi websites out there and I found it very discouraging. Everyone thinks that their approach to being a Jedi or Jediism is the most correct and the others have it wrong. I don't think this is a healthy view.

Well, if they didn't think they did it better they would just be part of one of those other groups. As long as they don't have a negative attitude towards those other groups there is nothing wrong with believing that your way is the better way. Perhaps I should rephrase, the way that is better for you and your members specifically, not necessarily better overall.

Trisskar wrote: Also have to keep in mind...A sense of superiority is found in any religion or group minded party. It is human nature to feel ones own way is the better way. Just how it is I feel it does one better to just accept that it is there and will remain there....than to say "Its not healthy and we should do it this other way instead." Because then....you are just doing what they do haha

Just something to think about.

To add to this line of thought, trying to eliminate the pride of religion is a futile exercise. As narrated by Alan Watts, the pursuit of becoming "the most humble" simply becomes another form of pride.

Instead, a more useful exercise would be to acknowledge such pride exists, and use it to your advantage. The pride of beng a Jedi can help you at times to push through a tough moment in life and go the extra mile. And at the same time, you acknowledge that you are not exempt from falling to the more classical consequence of pride, which is to be completely closed to learning something new.

Adder wrote: So therefore the nature of its individual application and minimal dogma gives the impression of incoherence in the Jedi path, but in fact to me its the best vehicle for growing and exploring applied spirituality and pragmatism without unnecessary borders or boundaries. Unless you disagree with the doctrine, or cannot understand the contextual meaning inferred by its relationships - in which case it might be impediment to ones growth!!! We're each different though, and I don't think the doctrine is meant to be a limiting influence, but a supporting one.

These are interesting thoughts. Do you really feel that it is just the "impression of incoherence" or actual manifest incoherence that many justify in some way or another? This is what I am trying to work through in this thread. What is the common thread in each of our individually diverse paths that binds the philosophy of "group Jedi" together and keeps it from being incoherent? If you ask any self professed Jedi what it means to be Jedi you will get a different answer and often times a radically different one. Ask about a philosophy such as "The Force" and find that answer to be even more diverse.

Taavi mentioned the Sufi's and how diverse their individual groups can be. So much so that many Sufi join multiple groups. However if you study the Sufi structure each group rallies under a single grand masters teachings who in turn can trace a direct lineage back to Muhammad himself. Interpretations of the teachings vary but the pedigree and the core philosophy from which it arises are evident and every student of that master follows those teachings as law. It seems to me that most religious organizations can outline a similar structure - however it seems this is not true with Jediism with one exception - the movies themselves - which, as I described in my opening post, were never meant to create a spiritual following. Because of this it seems that most Jedi have become islands unto themselves with no lineage to trace and no core philosophy to rally around.

Take the doctrine at this very temple. I have studied it as all apprentices have and as I mentioned before I personally have rejected parts, modified parts and replaced parts. Now I know not all do this and for those that dont I commend them. But in the end, for me, this process seems to have left me disconnected from that core component of the temple as well as the philosophy of the authority that created the doctrine. It seems to me that to be a member of this temple one should be an adherent to the letter of the doctrine and a follower of the teachings of the creator(s) of that doctrine. We all start out in the same place with the IP training but then as we travel that path some take up the gauntlet and others do not. By the time we have reached the AP we are on radically different training paths and many have dispersed into their own highly divergent paradigm philosophies that do not necessarily reflect temple teachings. Of course that is not the case for all and I cant speak as a Knight and what they experience because I have not reached that level. I am just speaking from my own humble experience and standing at this time.

and I know the training is designed so that individual growth and opinion can be encouraged but I wonder if those that go through the training and find themselves in a place where they do not agree in part or at all with the doctrine can truly call themselves "Jedi of the TotJO"? For some reason "the powers that be" allow those of us that do not accept the doctrine as written and the teachings as verbatim to continue on here in training. But we are really "just Jedi" not a particular brand of Jedi called "Jedi of the TotJO". We are orphans with no pedigree that have been "adopted" here for a season, so to speak, and eventually many will likely move on to other pursuits. I have felt this disconnection from the temple for these reasons and I wonder if anyone else felt it or if I was missing some thread that tied us together in another way.

Maybe this is by design? If it is by design is seems to me that it leaves the path impotent and incapable of evolution unless that elite class of "Jedi of the TotJO" The true Knights of THIS temple unify and move forward as one voice to evolve the doctrine and the teachings and take those things to the world so that some of the wisdom in this temple may be brought to the masses. And maybe that is even a prerequisite to become a knight here? (like I said, not sure since I have not gone that far) And as for those of us that are "Just Jedi" we would be relegated to the fringes of this movement, still fighting the good fight in the wilderness as Ronin while upholding our version of Jediism but holding no master and no cause other than ones we deem for ourselves.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: So therefore the nature of its individual application and minimal dogma gives the impression of incoherence in the Jedi path, but in fact to me its the best vehicle for growing and exploring applied spirituality and pragmatism without unnecessary borders or boundaries. Unless you disagree with the doctrine, or cannot understand the contextual meaning inferred by its relationships - in which case it might be impediment to ones growth!!! We're each different though, and I don't think the doctrine is meant to be a limiting influence, but a supporting one.

These are interesting thoughts. Do you really feel that it is just the "impression of incoherence" or actual manifest incoherence that many justify in some way or another? This is what I am trying to work through in this thread. What is the common thread in each of our individually diverse paths that binds the philosophy of "group Jedi" together and keeps it from being incoherent? If you ask any self professed Jedi what it means to be Jedi you will get a different answer and often times a radically different one. Ask about a philosophy such as "The Force" and find that answer to be even more diverse.

I find a lot of labels in common usage are not very well orchestrated as unique identifiers of something in particular, and instead tend to be a bit vague, duplicating or overlapping other concepts by some margin. So when I was confronted with the doctrine, I had the opportunity to look at how these terms sit against each other in regards to how I think a pragmatic moral framework might work best. By doing this I was able to refine the meaning of particular elements so that they were able to together be coherent. Not to say it was incoherent to begin with.... but it did need some refinement for me - not because of its structure so much, but more because either 1. I was not informed enough about the true meaning of a concept, or 2 the concept itself in popular usage was not resolved to a high enough resolution for my effective application. So its the former for me, as where I found incoherence to be an impression formed by the complex of my own weak areas of knowledge plus the weakness of the vernacular or flowery blurred concepts which otherwise could be seen to overlap.

Because of those things I'd guess different Jedi give different answers because the doctrine is meant probably more as a tool rather then a statement so much, and so different Jedi might be working on different elements of it at different times which they are using to balance their view and conduct - so when quizzed you get a fragmentary perspective of them in the 'now', rather then a recitation of a doctrinal creed which might be miscast as a statement of truth. That's sort of how I view it. So when a Jedi progresses, they acquire experience in this application in real practical personal terms, and then the next level is to be able to share awareness to understand and assist others as required in their own progress.

So your example, the Force; I think a Jedi might well be trying to develop a relationship with this concept in experiential ways and so need to embody it with that progress. A descriptive static doctrine might help form a group identity but would IMO work against the whole point of it being about the focus to progress. So it's not about being a group at the cost of supporting members progress. What is 'TotJO' but just a platform for all Jedi to focus and share in.... their progress. Group identities matter pretty much nothing under normal circumstances. So with the group focus on member progress, the members focus not on the group but their progress, and so when asked about the group's doctrine correctly refer to their progress
:blink: :lol:

Actually there are quite a few theistic Satanic organizations.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_Satanism

I am aware, I was simply speaking of the Satanists I know, and they have never put the atheist in front of the Satanic part.

Hence the reason for my qualification. I did not think you believed in such things as “The Force” as a sentient entity. I was actually the one that insinuated the Jedi path was similar to others paths like Taoism. So I was simply trying to clarify that for Sith as well. So your right, I made the simplest of comparisons so that we may delve deeper and I can appreciate the distinction you bring up between Sith and Satanism so enough said there.

Actually, I really wouldnt know one way or the other what each individual Sith thinks about the Force. Not a hot topic of discussion.

You say that Sith share a common culture but that only seems to go as far as any one particular Site.

Nope, I meant several. Of course, those are the ones I am a part of, and in those I have risen to a leadership role due to well, experience, and evidence. I lead by example, or so I like to believe.

I take it from your comments that other sites may have different locally shared cultures. If that is true it would seem the neither the Sith or the Jedi have a universal shared culture and either path follower can be whatever he/she wants to be to a great extent. Unless of course there is some sort of multi-site council or something?

No, not different locally shared cultures. I did not mean to imply that at all. Their simply isnt he number of Sith sites as there are Jedi sites. I mean, nowhere close. The only one that is wildly out of line is "Sith Academy" and I have delete or banned them from any other site I am a part of, which if I am not mistaken, are the only other ones left, certainly, the only ones turning out real results from training. There was many more in the past, but they dwindled. I had a lot to do with that. Those and a few others from my....."Graduating class" for lack of a better phrase.

As for the individual Sith path and its philosophy of “getting what you want”, I’m assuming you mean material things?

Hmm, well, yes, I mean material things, but you also in the process gain other things that are tangible, but not material.

Newfound confidence, is tangible in ones demeanor for example. However, it is not material. Still, in the process of achievement and success, one gains said trait.

In getting what you want, other things fall into place smaller disciplines must be enforced.

My core passion is martial arts.

When I started, I was 230 lbs. I am now at 159 lbs.

This was due to several factors that came up in the "Strength" aspect of the methodology.

Diet became important because of performance.

Mat time is the only way to improve. Increased sessions led to more cardiovascular effort, and physical exertion.

Supplemental strength training( Weights, Stretching, Calisthenics,etc)

As such, I am stronger, and much more physically fit, but not for their own sake, but as a by product of my passion to achieve more skill, and knowledge in the martial arts.

"Discipline, equals Freedom"-Jocko Willink.

Another by product was of course feeling better, due to good nutrition and taking better care of myself. Which is tangible, especially given my bio markers, but not exactly material.

Martial arts itself imparts many lessons and traits that are not material, but tangible.

Leadership skills. Teaching. Communication, etc.

Are those typically short term or long term or some combo of goals? For example short term goals would be something like getting a new car, or changing jobs or getting that raise? Or are they longer term like paying of a real estate purchase, becoming president of your company, or achieving a 6 figure salary by retirement? Or am I mistaking what you mean by “Getting what you want?”

The method does not change, only the timeline. Its for both short, and long-term goals.

You mention that Sith do not sit around and discuss philosophy – good and evil etc. But I wonder if there are any boundaries in how you pursue “what you want”? For example can you use deception, coercion, even sex or other such things in your pursuit? Is vengeance a valid pursuit? I’m just curious on this point, you know, how close real Sith are to the stereotype and all. Just a point of observation, if these things are off the table as far as achieving your goals it would seem that even though you don’t talk about morality you do use it – or is it “any means available” to achieve your goals?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxi-IUnCN_8

There is always more than one way to skin a cat. Its not for me to decide how you skin it. This is the where personal accountability, responsibility, and ownership of ones life and choices, as well as there repercussions come in. When I say its not discussed, I mean just that.

Lastly you say that Sith do not seek self-improvement but is that really the case? Of course Jedi seek a spiritual self-improvement or a character improvement through their training but don’t Sith also seek self-improvement only in a material sense? If I am understanding correctly in their pursuit of “What they want” they are trying to improve their station in life. Better job, better money, nicer house. I would assume this would extend to relationships as well? Maybe they seek a spouse or something like that? Aren’t these all things that improve themselves only from a material standpoint?

I really couldnt care less to argue semantics. Its crap like this that wastes a lot of valuable time for me and others, and further space for more interesting, productive discussion.

Life, is a finite thing. Time, is precious.

When typing a paragraph, it is good to ask if this a valuable expense of ones limited time.

This , were it too come up in a Sith site, would be ignored.

In fact, the few times these type of threads pop up, they remain empty.

Adder wrote: I find a lot of labels in common usage are not very well orchestrated as unique identifiers of something in particular, and instead tend to be a bit vague, duplicating or overlapping other concepts by some margin. So when I was confronted with the doctrine, I had the opportunity to look at how these terms sit against each other in regards to how I think a pragmatic moral framework might work best. By doing this I was able to refine the meaning of particular elements so that they were able to together be coherent. Not to say it was incoherent to begin with.... but it did need some refinement for me - not because of its structure so much, but more because either 1. I was not informed enough about the true meaning of a concept, or 2 the concept itself in popular usage was not resolved to a high enough resolution for my effective application. So its the former for me, as where I found incoherence to be an impression formed by the complex of my own weak areas of knowledge plus the weakness of the vernacular or flowery blurred concepts which otherwise could be seen to overlap.

I can understand what you are saying here. From my stand point I was not trying to imply that the doctrine itself was incoherent due to inconsistency, redundancy or contradiction. We have a tendency to see things as component parts. It is a product of our corporeal existence. Often times this leads to the illusion of contradiction. So it is important that we understand this and not fall into the trap of replacing the intent of a doctrine with its component parts. We need to look beyond the component parts on the surface and seek out the deeper meanings and hidden messages of the whole. Like life, we need to see the components only as distinct manifestations of an otherwise innate single paradigm that we ascribe our lives to.

I think the doctrine as written is a comprehensive document from an “action” point of view. Where I feel it is lacking is in its cohesive presentation of Jedi philosophy. I think this leads to an ill-defined or otherwise fuzzy interpretation of that innate paradigm. Because of that I have dismantled it and attempted to reassemble it by replacing or modifying or expanding or more succinctly defining parts to better encompass the Jedi worldview. I think every one of us goes through this process to one extent or another. For me, the problem in this lies in the fact that I feel if you strip too much away there seems to be nothing left. No foundational core component that everything else is built upon. This has been my quandary. There seems to be no single paradigm that “binds the universe together”? I have been left with a conglomeration of quickly thrown together pieces but no core. LOL, I don’t know, maybe I misplaced it somewhere!

Adder wrote: Because of those things I'd guess different Jedi give different answers because the doctrine is meant probably more as a tool rather then a statement so much, and so different Jedi might be working on different elements of it at different times which they are using to balance their view and conduct - so when quizzed you get a fragmentary perspective of them in the 'now', rather then a recitation of a doctrinal creed which might be miscast as a statement of truth. That's sort of how I view it. So when a Jedi progresses, they acquire experience in this application in real practical personal terms, and then the next level is to be able to share awareness to understand and assist others as required in their own progress.

I can see what you are saying here. It goes back to my comments on the fragmentary perceptions of our reality. However I must ask you, Do you think that any one Jedi’s individual “progress” as they acquire experience through time will eventually lead to some common discernible single truth? And in this I don’t really mean an absolute truth, as I think in our current reality that is something we can never obtain. What I am talking about here is an objective truth about the true nature of “The Force” as near as we can obtain. This would be the thing that I would consider should be that most basic underlying philosophy that would bind all Jedi together in a common core. And I think that if "The Force" is an actual existent substance (i.e. a thing that has properties) there has to also exist truth about its nature. And in that fact, some that have not found that truth, can be wrong about the nature of it.

As we each progress we all struggle to define what that true nature is and we debate and discuss endlessly. However eventually some, maybe not even all, but at least some would eventually come to that place where they genuinely begin to comprehend that truth and that it is truly an incomprehensible thing. These are the ones that have come to that place where true wisdom begins and they no longer have to discuss, they just nod at one another in silent comprehending agreement as they watch the machinations of the world around them. Those are the ones that have not arrived at a place but have actually "touched The Force" and have truly begun their journey. Everything that came before was just “preparation” for that journey.

I don’t know, maybe I’m just overthinking this. :laugh: