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Joseph Campbell is awful

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09 Apr 2018 23:47 #320266 by Kyrin Wyldstar
I came here looking for answers. The problem was I did not know the questions. I think that anyone that truly comes here and is honest in their pursuit and is willing to endure the pain of sweeping away fluffy preconceptions and cognitive bias comes to this same conclusion. Asking themselves "what is the question"?

When one can strip all the shit away and lay themselves bare before themselves in ultimate honesty anything Campbell or watts or this temple's doctrine has to say becomes meaningless. Each piece becomes but a sliver in an endless sea of slivers embedded into an infinate haystack. To pick any one of them up and arrogantly declair "This is it!" "This is truth"! Has missed the point of the haystack and that's one of the saddest experiences any human could ever undergo. It makes my spirit weep in sorrow to see people in that state.

But if we don't also pick up each sliver in Campbell and watts and and many others and spend a moment studying them then we have missed the point once again. We will never comprehend the haystack but if we give up trying we are just as lost.

I have come to a place where I'm no longer even sure if there is a question or even if i possess any sort of free will at all. It's up to each of us to take this journey as deep as you want to take it. I feel sorry for those that stop at one sliver and declair this is truth just as much as I feel sorry for those that ignore the sliver and declair there is no wisdom there for me to discover.

So I implore each of you to pick up any sliver presented and study it. It may prick you and it may soothe you, it doesn't matter, what matters is the experience of it. And through that experience we build our own splinter to add to the pile.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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10 Apr 2018 03:04 #320274 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
To read, to listen, to learn, to discover or realize things from a source of information, is it really ever about simply agreeing or disagreeing with it? I think if I blindly agreed with Campbell or Watts just the same as if I were out to simply debunk things with what I believed I know better about, I would have been wasting my own time. To "learn how to learn", as paradoxical as it may sound, I feel is an important ability to develop. Knowing how to interact with any source beyond one's agreements and disagreements, I've always felt is imperative when it concerns philosophy. :)

It seems that I know that I know.
What I would like to see is the 'I' that knows me when I know that I know that I know.
- Alan Watts
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10 Apr 2018 10:40 - 10 Apr 2018 10:42 #320281 by Vusuki
Replied by Vusuki on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Vusuki wrote: So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...


I don't believe all myths tell part of a whole story. There are many myth paradigms and Campbell's is only one form. He does conveniently ignore anything that does not fit his narrative. The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero. According to Campbell there is no such thing as Heroine and females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with his version of "Hero". There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.


Kyrin- thanks for your time replying. I'm going to try to explore the Heroine idea you brought up and the Anti Hero story, (I don't know much about the Homeric hero story) but for later- what other myth paradigms are there please? :) I'm just playing with the ideas here.

1) When you say "he [Campbell] considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero", isn't Campbell simply describing how the myths they themselves present the female role (which represents their culture and values)?
2) I think there's a clarification to be made between the Heroine and the female role and this distinction is made by Campbell when he gives examples in his book, (Hero with a Thousand Faces) where Campbell does refer to (for-want-of-a-better-word) "feministic" myths (he doesn't call them that though) where the heroine as the main character in the myth goes on a similar adventure like any male hero from another myth. You gave some examples of women in myth earlier- which one do you think best rejects Campbell's mono-myth ideal?
3) I think even though the word Hero is usually seen in a masculine sense, it does not mean it is only for men (although that might be how it is portrayed by some cultures)- it is more overarching and is beyond masculinity or femininity so yes, in a way you're right than females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with Campbell's version of "Hero" but in another universe this would be the same with different words, that men cannot have their own story without being intertwined with a version of the "Heroine". Did Campbell ever say the "Hero" was ever just a man? I believe he said or at least implied that every one of us, men and woman are the Hero archetype.

The Anti-hero Story. Do you know of any Anti-Hero story from long ago? Maybe the one about Loki being a trickster god could count... but he is usually a side character or an obstacle to overcome rather than the main character/hero/anti-hero in the old myths. I think one of Campbell's premises was that myths have lasted so long because they seemed important to people throughout time. I wonder whether the Punisher or Deadpool will be remembered and revered like the myths of old. In a way, I think Anti-hero stories are more entertaining to us of today than meaningful. Possibly the same can be same for Hero stories of today like Spiderman, Superman and Batman. Maybe the fact that most anti-hero stories exist today show how our current culture feels that the lines between good and wrong are blurry and unclear as opposed to in the past (when religion played a major part in morality.). Stories of the anti-hero were inappropriate and deemed immoral by authorities and were likely destroyed. I wonder...

I've been trying to find some links disproving Campbell. I thought the wikipedia entry with criticism was interesting. There was some support to the idea that the Heroine's journey is different somehow to the male version supported by two books, The Heroine's Journey (1990) by Maureen Murdock and From Girl to Goddess: The Heroine's Journey through Myth and Legend (2010), by Valerie Estelle Frankel. Have you read either one of them Kyrin?

In any case, during this entire conversation and some research, I think I learning that I'm probably wrong to think that Campbell's model fits every story. That just fits another model I have about confirmation bias and that no one model accurately describes any one thing. There's usually a forgotten context or environmental factors that we just aren't aware of. What you know is less likely to take you by surprise than what you don't know. Additionally, there is sometimes a problem that we don't know that we don't know. We just fool ourselves into thinking we do... Still, Campbell's model is a good model for describing quite a few stories and connecting them together, if that's what you want to do. It also has helped me think about my own life in perhaps a more constructive way than before... Anyone feel they have another preferred model to seeing their own life than Campbells? :)

Below: Chapter of Criticism of the Monomyth from wikipedia posted in spoiler
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]
Last edit: 10 Apr 2018 10:42 by Vusuki.
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10 Apr 2018 13:41 #320300 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
OB1 - shoot me a PM if you would like to get into it. I'll not hijack the thread.

rugadd
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11 Apr 2018 18:03 - 11 Apr 2018 18:05 #320336 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Vusuki,

While the Heroes journey is primarily an external journey the heroines journey is an internal one. It is about learning to suffer and endure. The Heroine is subjected to indignity while maintaining grace, composure, and patience. Most heroic stories involve some element of perseverance through strength of will. On the other hand the Heroine’s Journey is different in that a heroine’s perseverance is tested not to see whether she can persevere to achieve a separate goal, but rather simply to see if she can persevere, period. The Chinese legend of Hua Mulan might be a good example.


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Last edit: 11 Apr 2018 18:05 by Kyrin Wyldstar.
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11 Apr 2018 23:59 #320346 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The Chinese legend of Hua Mulan might be a good example



In contemplating this, another great example of this has been my journey here at this temple. It definitely has not been a heroic struggle to achieve but an internal struggle to persevere and grow in the face of indignity.

This guns for hire, even if we're just dancing in the dark.
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12 Apr 2018 00:37 #320347 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I'd say its relevance is to a struggle, by its association with heroism rather then to journey. And so to contextualize it as a pathway 'out' the numbering sequence serves to denote a start to contrast an end, but in practical terms since deeper struggle is usually unknowable prior I tend to find the entry point to be the struggle. Such that the departure are methods to actively choose to accept, identify and take responsibility for ones predicament so they can serve usefully going forward rather then pull one backwards. The act is a metaphor to coping with transformation from struggle. And the return allows a neat bow to ritualize the exit from the struggle. So in the context of how I see the starting point, I'd probably reclassify the 3 stages into arrival->initiation->departure, rather then departure->initiation->return. Because I don't think a hero is made for taking a journey, but for overcoming something. Certainly before our generations the larger portion of that was of the actual journey, but perhaps these days the journey is more of the mind then of the body, and so the focus can return to where the transformation now actually occurs. Random thoughts...

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
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17 Apr 2018 20:05 #320511 by Carlos.Martinez3
@ PaschalVehicle
Part of the lesson isn’t about the author but about the subject so keep that in mind as well if you can - regardless of the author the first lesson is about the myth. The myth - what do you think of it - seen it - recognize it- use it- see it- where when how does it have any relevance to you - how do you use it if any? The myth -

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17 Apr 2018 20:49 #320513 by TheDude
Replied by TheDude on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
On Alan Watts: I personally think The Way of Zen would be a much more useful entry in the IP than The Book. It addresses many of the same points with better presentation.

I can understand the distaste for Campbell, but his accreditation is unimportant. A degree doesn't determine your knowledge in any area; I have known philosophers with a better understanding of physics and the material sciences than many people with degrees working in the field. The fact that he doesn't have a theology degree is of no concern; the man dedicated his time to researching a particular topic, mythology, and he aims to present a unified theory of examination in that field. I will admit that he takes it a bit far, as there are many conflicting cultures and religions, with myths aiming to demonstrate different moral or metaphysical ideals, but his monomyth is useful for establishing a unified terminology for common story elements. A streamlined dictionary is very useful, and Campbell at least attempts to do so.
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17 Apr 2018 20:59 #320514 by Carlos.Martinez3
Monomyth - can I claim the allmyth as a inclusion of every myth for every man? Called it ! Lol

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