Joseph Campbell is awful

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09 Apr 2018 09:54 - 09 Apr 2018 09:57 #320216 by Vusuki
Replied by Vusuki on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Excuse the double post. I decided I'd go through the entire quote and just say yep or nope to each bit.

"All myths don’t tell a single story."

(Maybe so but maybe they tell parts of the same story)

There are motifs common to some (not all) hero myths, but that doesn’t mean they have the same lesson or meaning behind them.

(Yep)

When you decide on a pattern that you’re sure is right it’s easy to ignore stories that don’t fit or reinterpret stories that just kinda-sorta fit. That’s exactly what Campbell did.

(Yep. This is the "man with a hammer" model- I like what this article has to say on it- www.fs.blog/mental-models/ )

The idea of a monomyth undermines what’s greatest about mythology.

(Not convinced but go on...)

Myths carry a tremendous amount of cultural content.

(Yep)

The entire worldview of a society, its values and highest aspirations, are encoded in myth.

(Perhaps. Entire worldview probably not but parts of it yeah sure)

This value-content is unique to each culture’s mythology, and it’s what makes myth magical.

(Hmmm... Yes the value content is unique, but no it's not what makes myth (overall) magical. There's a magic in each story made so by it's own value-content, but there's a magic too in having a model of how myths relate to one another. I think myths are only magical if we can relate to them in some way. That's the nice thing about having a model to look at them with.)

Focusing on the things that are the same between all cultures means ignoring the heart of myth.

(Maybe yes for some people if they define that they know what the "heart of myth" is, or defining that it is NOT something that links all myths together. Others would argue that focusing on the things that are the same between all cultures IS focusing on the heart of those cultures and by extension perhaps myth. But either way, there's something in the idea that if you know that you know... you're probably forgetting/ignoring all the stuff you don't- confirmation bias works all ways, :) )

When you universalize myth, you don’t.

(Not sure I understand. You don't what? You don't universalize it?)

Any attempt to define the universal story of myth will end up defining the author’s own personal bias.

(True in the sense that any attempt to define anything (a fish bowl, politics, my life story) will end up defining the author's own personal bias. To think you can have a purely objective view on something is arrogant indeed. I am also being arrogant in saying that in some way!)

In Campbell’s case, he focused primarily on male mythic figures and stories that agreed with his own theosophical views.

(Maybe. Maybe his own theosophical views changed through his study of myths? Like a puzzle, he was trying to put different parts of life usually held apart together so he could make better sense of things.)

The monomyth he tells resonates strongly with Western audiences because it was written by a Westerner."

(Yes. Probably true. We share (as westerners) similar models of viewing life or have shared knowledge of certain ideas. This helps understand what one another is saying. I wonder however how well the monomyth resonates with Eastern audiences- have much studies been done on that? Hmmmm...)"

Thanks for your time reading and replying
Last edit: 09 Apr 2018 09:57 by Vusuki. Reason: Spacing
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09 Apr 2018 10:12 - 09 Apr 2018 10:14 #320217 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
I cannot help but feel that cultures change more over a couple of generations then the difference between different cultures change, generally speaking. This will probably be more true as globalization digs in. And so personally, I do not discount the capability of a person to develop a deeper understanding of some other culture just because they are not of it, then those who might be having the same focus from within it. Sometimes being too close to the picture means you cannot see what it actually is.... just as much as looking at only a corner hides it also. I think what is more relevant is the nature and extents of the effort rather then the skin colour or upbringing of the person doing it.

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09 Apr 2018 14:41 #320227 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Joseph Campbell is like anything else I read or listen too or watch. I take the things that are useful and discard the rest.

rugadd
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09 Apr 2018 15:14 #320229 by Trisskar
Replied by Trisskar on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

PaschalVehicle wrote: Trisskar: I don't disagree. The Power of Myth as a book is, indeed, just a transcript of an interview; and interviews are frequently not consistent, coherent, or enlightening by their very nature. It is frustrating however to have *required reading* for a program be, as I said and continue to emphasise, inconsistent at best and incoherent at worst. Perhaps I'm just reliving my own personal hell of Catcher in the Rye in high school. As for my priorities, Point A is the IP and Point B is admission into the Seminary, for a variety of reasons that have a great deal to do with my own personal idiosyncrasies, and that is certainly a goal for which I will tolerate fields and valleys of flowers. So dislike Campbell or not I'll still keep reading him and journaling.


Completely agree. I feel the temple should only focus on the Hero's Journey and it's incorporation towards the Jedi Path....the rest is just "Stuff & Nonsense" as Alan Watt's likes to say :-p

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09 Apr 2018 15:17 #320230 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Vusuki wrote: So can you give some clear examples where a myth or story doesn't fit Campbell's idea of the Hero's Journey? I'm very interested in testing if it is possible to use the theory on any myth or whether I have to accord only a specific fragment of the model to the myth you give...


I don't believe all myths tell part of a whole story. There are many myth paradigms and Campbell's is only one form. He does conveniently ignore anything that does not fit his narrative. The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero. According to Campbell there is no such thing as Heroine and females cannot have their own story without being intertwined with his version of "Hero". There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.

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09 Apr 2018 15:36 - 09 Apr 2018 15:37 #320231 by Trisskar
Replied by Trisskar on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The Heroine for example. He considers the female roles in myth as a prize for the hero.


This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.

There are several other versions as well, including the anti hero story


Has nothing to do with being a Jedi or a hero of virtue.... sooooo....not relevant...therefor no reason to mention it

and the Homeric hero story, none of which follow the cycle that Campbell describes.


seems to follow the heros journey just fine from my reading
Last edit: 09 Apr 2018 15:37 by Trisskar.
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09 Apr 2018 16:10 #320232 by Senan
Replied by Senan on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
First, the interviews and even The Power of Myth are more Cliff Note versions of Hero With a Thousand Faces. Just like any other academic, if we're going to judge the work, we have to judge it in its entirety. There are certainly big leaps taken by Campbell and he does try to shoehorn certain myths into his model, but we also have to consider the time during which his research was conducted and resources he had available to him. At the time he was doing it, he was one of the very few who had attempted to find similarity between a vast number of myths worldwide from various cultures. And he didn't have the benefit of the internet, or even computers for that matter. And most ancient mythology did feature male heroes. And there are translation issues. And, and, and...

When I consider his work in this light, I see it laying a foundation that we can use to further his study of mythology and perhaps expand upon it. Or we may eventually demonstrate that the Hero's Journey is inherently flawed. What I have been unable to deny is that his model does fit a lot of modern mythology including those featuring female heroes. Disney has especially embraced this, as far back ad Belle in Beauty and the Beast and the recent backstory of Maleficent. We see it in The Matrix. It shows up in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Harry Potter and The Karate Kid follow the script pretty closely. It doesn't need to be dismissed offhand just because it has Campbell's name on it.

The reason I see value in including it in the IP is that we call ourselves Jedi and look to the fictional characters and the philosophy/mythology that influenced their creation. George Lucas has specifically mentioned numerous times that the story arc of Luke Skywalker is definitely influenced by the Hero's Journey model. He admits to borrowing from existing mythology from multiple cultures to create his Star Wars universe. To explore the theological and mythological influences of Star Wars without including Campbell would be like studying Aristotle while ignoring Plato and Socrates. We don't have to agree with Campbell, but we should not deny his role in influencing modern mythology, especially the cinema.

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09 Apr 2018 16:44 #320235 by Kyrin Wyldstar

Trisskar wrote: This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.


Actually there are a myriad of ancient heroine and strong female lead character myths. In fact it was the norm before Patriarchal warrior clans destroyed much of the ancient stories and practices by replacing them or modifying them with male figures. However many survived. There are tons of ancient heroine stories of the Goddesses like Artemis, Tiamat, Hel, Bastet, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Freya. Also there were the Amazons, Lilith, Eve, Atalanta, Hua Mulan, The Valkyrie - even real life figures like Joan of Arc of which legend has formed around. The list goes on and many of these legendary heroines have been downplayed over the centuries because of emphasis on male counterparts.


Trisskar wrote: Has nothing to do with being a Jedi or a hero of virtue.... sooooo....not relevant...therefor no reason to mention it


I never said it did and this is not a discussion on Jediism but a discussion on the heroes journey so I do find it relevant.

Trisskar wrote: seems to follow the heros journey just fine from my reading


Then your reading it wrong. ;)

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09 Apr 2018 18:06 #320242 by Trisskar
Replied by Trisskar on topic Joseph Campbell is awful

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Trisskar wrote: This is understandable and ligitimate. Back in the day and in most myths that is the role of a female. It is rare upon rare to have a female hero, it is only just recently that female hero's are so pushed for popularity these days. And the hero's journey monomyth as it is now is easily used and followed by our female heros.


Actually there are a myriad of ancient heroine and strong female lead character myths. In fact it was the norm before Patriarchal warrior clans destroyed much of the ancient stories and practices by replacing them or modifying them with male figures. However many survived. There are tons of ancient heroine stories of the Goddesses like Artemis, Tiamat, Hel, Bastet, White Buffalo Calf Woman, Freya. Also there were the Amazons, Lilith, Eve, Atalanta, Hua Mulan, The Valkyrie - even real life figures like Joan of Arc of which legend has formed around. The list goes on and many of these legendary heroines have been downplayed over the centuries because of emphasis on male counterparts.


And every single one of them follows the Heros Journey format. And nearly all of them are in the "New" ages save one or two of which are the rare cases i spoke of

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09 Apr 2018 18:22 #320245 by DeboraJ
Replied by DeboraJ on topic Joseph Campbell is awful
Okay, try not to be offended, I'm not going to offer you "niceties" like the others, but instead offer you my honesty on your statement, with all the kindness possible for addressing such a disrespectful rant.

If you are having difficulties with the IP material, it is probably best you consult with the clergy or another member INSTEAD of opting to just publically disrespect the core philosophy source for the Temple right in the middle of its "online hallowed halls".

You do understand that your tirade complaining that you hate Campbell in the TOTJO IP is like entering Christian seminary and then complaining that you don't like JC in the Bible?

The idea of The Force originates with the concepts of the "i" Campbell as experienced through the "i" Lucas. If the "i" you are being this time around doesn't like it, then don't do it and go find something else that "i" as you this time around does like. Simple as can be.

From my reading of your rant, it seems to me that you are having issues with self and simply cannot get past ego while trying to complete this portion of the IP, since all you've listed is what is offensive to you personally...as if the Temple of the Jedi Order Initiate Programme was here just to suit you personally.

Pardon me, "i" have to go laugh with "I" and IT for a moment.

As a retired college instructor "i" will leave you with this advice: If you don't like the studies THAT YOU YOURSELF SIGNED ON FOR either try harder to understand what is blocking YOU or find something else to study. Lengthy manifestos on why you hate your homework are childish and don't have ANY place in ANY learning environment beyond first grade.

As your peer in the IP "i" will remind you of the 21 Maxims and that "A Jedi is unencumbered by bias or personal interest." and your rant is filled with nothing but bias and personal interest.

But the i/I/IT will just continue to laugh because your error here is equally entertaining as it is irritating because it was done in complete ignore-ance of anything other than yourself as just another "i" offshoot of the big "I" of "we" and you've missed the whole point in the first place.

Campbell is the core because his monomyth is THE thing that brings together ALL the religions under one roof for discussion of their similarities instead of their differences. That you managed to bring "difference" that is somehow also "offended" to this all is utterly amazing AND a true testimony to the ego of humanity and its blindness to reality which the IP and Jedism are intended to correct...

...and i/I/IT finds this to be hilarious. :) :) :) :) :) :)

May The Force be with you. :) If you don't conquer ego soon you're gonna really need it whence you arrive upon the lessons of Watts.

Deb :)
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