What is it like to feel gender?

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16 Oct 2020 04:27 #355383 by Rex
Replied by Rex on topic What is it like to feel gender?
Dumb semi-tangential question, but how is folx different from folks?
I get that it's apparently more lgbt... friendly, but how?

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16 Oct 2020 05:06 - 16 Oct 2020 05:11 #355385 by Eqin Ilis
Replied by Eqin Ilis on topic What is it like to feel gender?
If anything using folx instead of folks is more of a personal choice and identifier. Like how Jewish folks might write G-d instead of god, but they don't expect others to do it. Anyone that sees it from within the culture knows instantly the cultural associations and that the writer is connected to a specific community. It is never expected of an ally. So it's less of a "I'm LGBT friendly" flag and more of a "I'm queer, and I am comfortable with you knowing that" flag.

Edit: Keep in mind, queer people have historically needed to find each other under the noses of those who would hurt them. So recognizing a cultural identifier that is used in the community is not an indication that it is wise to out someone to everyone else. You never know when you might discover someone else has transphobic attitudes, so until you know for certain that a person is comfortable being outed, any conversation one has had with another should be considered private for safety's sake.
Last edit: 16 Oct 2020 05:11 by Eqin Ilis.

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16 Oct 2020 22:38 - 16 Oct 2020 22:40 #355399 by Adder

rugadd wrote: Neat ideas, but basically, you don't know either?


What else do we have to discuss beyond personal experiences? And how does one tell where the line is drawn between ideas and personal experiences to assert worth to the idea. Better to challenge the idea if you can than appeal to the likelihood of false authority IMO.

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Last edit: 16 Oct 2020 22:40 by Adder.
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17 Oct 2020 06:16 #355406 by Eqin Ilis
Replied by Eqin Ilis on topic What is it like to feel gender?
So you would rather we each discuss only our own personal experience, rather than the variety of personal experiences that exist? What would that achieve other than the drowning out of minority experiences?

If we were to speak of what it is like to know which is your dominant hand, and the entire thread was full of people sharing what it is like to be right handed, should not someone share what their left-handed and ambidextrous friends have told them about what it feels like to have those experiences? It wasn't too long ago, right handedness was considered natural and correct, but in a conversation about dominant hands we still have a duty to include the minorities. If I am the only person speaking up for the minorities in a conversation on gender, consider that there may be others here who fear rejection too much to speak for themselves. It's a statistical improbability for them not to be here and notice the acceptance or lack thereof on this thread.

You speak of false authority, yet you wish to challenge ideas while you offer no knowledge of the experiences of others outside the experience of yourself and speculation with your experience as that basis. If you think you have never met a trans person, consider how statistically unlikely that is and the possible reasons that they may have had for not opening up to you about such things.

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17 Oct 2020 18:12 #355419 by Rosalyn J
For this week I have been looking for inexpensive (free) means to educate myself on aspects of gender. I have found some for those of us (in a general sense) who ask "well if you don't tell us, how will we learn?"

As I said, these are free:
Gender and Sexuality: Applications in Society: www.classcentral.com/course/edx-gender-a...ons-in-society-12333
Gender and Intersectionality: www.classcentral.com/course/edx-gender-a...ersectionality-19311
Doing Gender and Why it Matters: www.classcentral.com/course/edx-doing-ge...why-it-matters-13325
Gender Equality and Sexual Diversity: www.classcentral.com/course/udemy-gender...exual-diversity-7323

I have not taken any of these courses but I plan to. Knowing that, I don't know if they are any good. I'm just exploring I encourage all who want to, to join me on this adventure.

Further, if you have studied gender and you want to, if you want to drop some resources here for continued education, please do

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17 Oct 2020 18:55 #355422 by Edan
I'd like to add this website as a good place to find resources:

Stonewall www.stonewall.org.uk/get-involved/stonewall-research

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18 Oct 2020 00:42 - 18 Oct 2020 00:45 #355425 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: So you would rather we each discuss only our own personal experience, rather than the variety of personal experiences that exist? What would that achieve other than the drowning out of minority experiences?


I'm not sure I ever said that, or even implied it. Where did you get that idea from? Consider the post above is in reply to quoted text. My posts are usually to a topic rather than everyone who might read my post, unless I have a quote in which case that particular reply is to the poster quoted.

Eqin Ilis wrote: You speak of false authority, yet you wish to challenge ideas while you offer no knowledge of the experiences of others outside the experience of yourself and speculation with your experience as that basis. If you think you have never met a trans person, consider how statistically unlikely that is and the possible reasons that they may have had for not opening up to you about such things.


It probably shouldn't matter that I spoke of something, and more of what I said about it. My reference to false authority was not aimed at anyone, but rather the defense that it might be aimed at me.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 18 Oct 2020 00:45 by Adder.

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21 Oct 2020 08:45 - 21 Oct 2020 08:46 #355489 by Eqin Ilis
Replied by Eqin Ilis on topic What is it like to feel gender?
I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth

The important thing to understand at this moment, is that I am doing my best to let LGBT individuals who may be reading this that they have someone who will support them. I apologize that this must be public, but as the link above makes clear,

Once educators recognize their own behaviors and microaggressions, they’re better equipped to identify microaggressions, bullying and harassment when they happen in schools. Even if it appears minor, these behaviors need to be interrupted in the moment. Too often transgender students expect no assistance from teachers; being ostracized becomes the norm. As one trans middle school student—who is now homeschooled—attests, “As long as it doesn’t escalate to a screaming match, they think everything looks fine.”

Unfortunately, the thread so far has already gone in a direction that can easily send a strong message to trans individuals that this group is not yet prepared to understand and accept them as they are. The fact of the matter is that an individual that must first defend their experiences and allow an entire group to scrutinize them is not going to feel supported. And while I understand that this may come across as an attack toward you, for which I apologize. I can only hope that your previous experiences with this group, the overall feeling of support over the years you have been here, and the tone of this message can help alleviate that somewhat. If you are able to look into these resources and form some understanding of how your words have contributed to this no longer being a safe space for trans individuals, you may also come to an understanding of why I felt this a necessary course of action.

I also found some more resources for anyone who is interested to help with this matter:
https://transequality.org/issues/resources/supporting-the-transgender-people-in-your-life-a-guide-to-being-a-good-ally
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/education/lifeguard-workshop/#sm.01td31rn1418ezo10ww1kmrb5tuud
https://www.genderspectrum.org
Last edit: 21 Oct 2020 08:46 by Eqin Ilis.

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21 Oct 2020 23:17 #355522 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: I believe answering your question directly is only more likely to get us off-topic. If your intent is truly to understand, I recommend: https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/summer-2016/being-there-for-nonbinary-youth


Nothing there I don't already know. I'm not sure how more off-topic we could get now as it seems to have become about what this forum area is for? Which I don't mind, its a new forum area and these things sometimes have to get worked out by trial and error.

So, to me at least, it seems this forum is already starting to ask itself what it is meant to be. That might be my mistake, but I'm not ignorant of this particular topic... perhaps some have misinterpret what I've wrote (its easy to do, even I don't understand some things I write after a while). I do note though that this topic didn't start in this forum area.

So while I note it was not originally posted in this area, I'm not sure if this forum space is meant to be a support group? I interpreted the Intersectional to be a more protected discussion. My understanding is that 'support groups' avoid upsetting people by not challenging their experiences. In contrast 'protected discussions' provide protections from people being abused for sharing their experiences. And well I'm sharing mine?

If that sort of protected but personal discussion upsets other people on a topic then perhaps this area could more usefully be a support group (or labelled and defined to work as such).

But of course if something is triggering anyone or potentially others on this topic in what I've said just point it out!? Feel free to be specific. If you don't want to know a persons deeper thoughts or reasons for something then I'd argue it should not bother you as much that they have it, else just ask ie as its a discussion forum.

But I'm far from ignorant of the topic, its just I don't define myself so much by my past or how I want others to see me, so my language is not about self identity - so my thoughts are on better defining working paradigms for deepening ones healthy experience of the particular topic. That often means adjusting language in small ways to constructively conserve the topic while adding more function and capability. As the topic poised a question which seemed to offer an exploration of the depth of the topic. I'm generally not at the Temple to 'talk about my problems' using conventional language as that is more a support group function - I'm not sure anything I've said is particularly harmful for anyone.

I mean, looking at this thread... I've used and agree with the differences in gender and sex,I've applied the lens of 'feeling' of ones gender as asked by the OP in the context of personal experience to define functional concepts of masculinity and femininity and how they function to better orientate one to feel gender, and I've even defended gender from old fashioned stereotypes!

It's really important that a minority avoids attacking itself and its allies when their members stray from the narrative. It happens a lot, it happened with feminism, it happens with race, it happens nationalism (what politics is) and all groups probably suffer it in various ways. I try not to buy into that myself, but a way to avoid it is to perhaps make this forum area more specific to a support group function? Otherwise it might run into this problem from time to time......

.... as in a support group, people would ask a question as a platform for people who want to talk about their experience of the topic in terms of as it happened, rather than why. While I've always considered discussions to be a platform for analysis, critical thinking, creative thinking etc, with the difference between intersectional, temple, and outer rim just being the measures of protections from excessive criticality or abuse.

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Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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22 Oct 2020 02:45 #355526 by Eqin Ilis
Replied by Eqin Ilis on topic What is it like to feel gender?
You say you were already educated on this topic. Yet, from your very first message on this thread, you resorted to speaking about how you view biological sex rather than gender. Can I then understand that you purposely redirected things in that way? I gave you the benefit of the doubt and attempted to relate to you as a person who might not know the harm they cause. Now you say you understand how these issues are viewed and think you should be free from the burden of using inclusive language unless this is a support group.

No one should be forced to run off into a support group to escape someone who is attempting to make this as uncomfortable as possible while staying within defined guidelines. Such behavior is a clear attempt at intimidation.

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