What is it like to feel gender?

TheDude wrote: Thank you all for sharing your thoughts (both here and in private) on gender so far. I know it can be a difficult and complex topic and I'm glad to see that this thread has been civil so far! I've been reading through your posts here and it's given me a lot to consider already.

One thing I wanted to ask OB1: you noted fighting as a masculine behavior. Now I've been doing martial arts for some time, and in each martial arts gym I have been in there have been women present. I recall in a taekwondo class I was in, there was a 16 year old girl whose kicks were so good that she could fight evenly with men twice her age and almost twice her weight. I recall a judo class where the best student was a 20-year-old woman. She could easily best any of the men in the class. She may have been one of the best judoka worldwide, based on her competition record. And let's not forget the wonderful women of combat sports who make their living through blood and broken bones! In each of these cases, I'm not talking about talentless and weak fighting. There was no hair-pulling or slapping or nail-digging. Just punches, kicks, throws, and submissions. Yet these women still adhered to female gender roles in other areas of their lives. So, given that these women I've met have been so much better at fighting than the vast majority of men I've met, I'm not sure why you say fighting in a masculine behavior. Could you explain a bit more?

If you were asking me, and you weren't hehe, I'd answer that to say that at the biological level the central difference revolves around the naturally occurring testosterone levels (something like 10x more in men?), and the impact of that on the body.... (ignoring the reproductive organs) being a mixed bag of things like bigger muscles, bigger bones and perhaps the complexes which arise from them like 'power' which leads to 'aggression' and which can lead to 'violence'.

It then mattering not what sex or gender a person actually has - if proficiency (or the appearance of) those sorts of traits exist then it could be said to be masculine. It just being having the character of.... and to me it seems to make more sense to take that approach. I think we're all familiar with masculine women and feminine men being rather normal, but it probably shouldn't be equated with being more or less a man or woman (those things being more specific to either sex or gender depending on application).

Tending to consider that the masculine and feminine terms having inherently biological foundations, as I do, I reckon they are therefore closer to sex than the concepts of gender - but its worth noting that a lot of gender is derived from those same things! But not such that you could reverse it IMO and use gender for masculine and feminine. If though over time masculinity and femininity became things unrelated to those things traditionally more within the realm of people with male and female sex, then it could I guess. I like to have clearer lines when using terms than some perhaps, but I try to be guided by what works best or is most accurate. Perhaps ask yourself what is it about a person which makes you think they are masculine or feminine (not male or female), and then consider what might be the root cause of those things, and see if it fits more into biology or sociology. This though to me is a really different line of enquiry than defining what is gender and understanding ways to perhaps feel like a gender IMO.

This topic has been moved to Intersectional. Please note this area is for discussion but not for debate.

A word on the current topic... gender and biological sex are different things. Though they may reflect the same thing for many, this is not the case for all. Please be aware that this is an important distinction for those who may consider their gender and sex different. Please read all responses closely before you comment, and take this distinction into consideration when you do.

Eqin Ilis wrote: I want to say that I do not find this conversation to be all that civil. I outlined my own experience of gender and the experiences of many gender queer individuals only to have it be completely ignored and drowned out with narratives that continue to hurt non-cisgender individuals. I'm sorry I'm asking a group of people who are not already exposed to these ideas to take the leap into understanding how their narratives are hurtful. Perhaps those who are so inclined will understand when they have educated themselves on the issues at hand. After this, I will no longer interact with this thread. And I will not see myself as beholden to explaining anything that can be easily searched by those who wish to learn of becoming an ally.

And for the record OB1, I am neither a pacifist, gay, or broke. Those examples were specifically for your scenario, because it was ridiculous and needed illustrating. Sorry to have to call you out publicly, but apparently a direct fight is the only thing that will make my gender clear to you as well as how incorrectly you interpreted the entirety of my post. You have now specified it at least three times at this point.

If you could, very carefully, without necessarily criticizing the actual person, tell us which and how the views expressed could be interpreted as hurtful, or trigger a more negative response, I'd really like to know for my personal edification and growth. I don't want to put you on the spot to do this but you may be the only one who can.

Hi

I'm stepping in here to drop this article: https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/04/28/sex-gender-difference-meaning-definition/

And to quote this "Gender is seen as a more personal, internal perception of oneself, that cannot be limited to biological characteristics. There are plenty of women who have penises, men who have vaginas, and non-binary people with either genitalia."

The words personal, internal,perception are important because it means that the person decides. Now, for us (I speak in general terms) to continue to conflate a personal, internal perception (gender) with an outward expression (sex) demonstrates at the very least a blind spot, and at the most willful ignorance.

Further we also invalidate an important part of identity. We impose our views on others. And what does our doctrine say about that?

Morality
A Jedi knows how contradicting beliefs of what is right and wrong can lead to devastating crimes and conflicts. A Jedi takes a step away from the subjectivity of opinion in favour of the peace of objectivity. A Jedi does not force their values upon others.

This has of course happened. Individuals with different expressions have been murdered for not conforming

This is a space on the internet, but the internet has become increasingly popular for shaping the views of society. We therefore have a responsibility to educate ourselves (not to ask others) on the matters in which we are ignorant and act according to that education

Eqin: You suggest to know what it feels like to be a man, the most important thing is to get into a fight. Do you then see a pacifist as inherently woman? Is someone able to lose his manhood through an aversion to fighting?



I do NOT find women (that I know) to be pacifist. They are more likely to fight than I am. I'm trying to be careful not to speak for all women. I'm just talking about many of the ones in my circle. They are more likely to get emotional and therefore say something to escalate a situation. They simply fight in different ways. Men are sometimes slower to fight because the fighting we tend to do in our masculinity is physical. Therefore, we try to avoid it getting to that point. The fighting that (these) females tend towards (and if true for others we can accept it is true for others without indicting the masses) is PSYCHOLOGICAL.

These are, naturally, behavior patterns augmented by age, experience, religiosity, and maturity, and socialization within local community.

I've had to talk an ex out of fighting several times, even fighting a guy several times. And I wouldn't call her very feminine so we have to take into account that masculinity and femininity are not binary but rather a spectrum. I think she would even (as much as she referred to her proverbial male appendage) agree that she's more masculine than most females, but you definitely couldn't visually tell if she was out.

Most couples end up in fights where the male is almost dazed and confused, thinking how did he get here, what landmine did he step on, but pushed into a defensive position before he realizes what's even happening. And women are adept at this kind of fighting and... I would say... quite dangerous. If I could I would rather engage in a psychological fight with another man because I feel like there are unwritten rules there and pride that keeps us from violating those terms and limits. I'm more fearful of women in this regard because they can be absolutely brutal. There is no 'chivalry' to stop them from attacking your masculinity, your gender, your mother even. I was once told "that's why your dad's dead"... and it made me cry and I sat there wondering if I was arguing with a human being.

So what I would say is that feminine does NOT mean weak... not at all. It's more like a rose with thorns. You can admire the beauty and softness of women but don't underestimate their potential for emotional and psychological violence; especially the smaller they are in stature. Because these things develop as defense mechanisms and if they don't see a way to win with brute force doesn't mean they can't or wont fight.

Old school men... would rather use our fists as testosterone demands. But women will grab a blade. They'll cut you. And new school... everyone seems to grab a gun.

Now females in martial arts... that doesn't really mean anything. We all have testosterone and estrogen. Having a stronger mix of one over the other doesn't mean you don't like violent sports. Some of those women may have simply started as a way to protect themselves in a world where women tend to be more independent. The number of women who have been raped is a number that is extremely uncomfortable for me to think about.

Most women I've been with have been raped at least once. So they also know that a man is not always going to be around to protect them. That doesn't mean they don't want a man around, but it could also mean that they feel more comfortable and safe around other women. I've grown up with martial arts movies and the old school ones are my favorite. And typically there are both male and female fighters who simply use different styles. So fighting, to me, has always been something everyone does but it is the style... that changes. I think a females strength tends to be more in their lower body.

Chun Lee vs Ken

It feels to me that there may be two topics here.

The initial question was 'what is it like to feel gender', but a lot of the actual discussion seems to be about traditional gender roles and biological responses due to sex. When gender and sex are different, it doesn't make sense to me to discuss the biological response of the different sexes to fighting, for example.

@Edan I don't have access to Intersectional, but I still see the thread in the outer rim and can respond to it. Not sure if that was intentional or not. If this moves to intersectional and I can't access it from the outer rim forum, I'd need permissions for intersectional to participate, I think.

The thread in outer rim is a 'shadow' topic, it remains so participants can find it, but does not come up in recent posts and merely points to the new position of the thread. Your ability to view it in its new position is a quirk of the forum.

I think I am getting a little confused. I went back and read through everything and I am wondering: As far as "feeling" which gender you are, on what basis do you give it a name? What feeling can describe a woman or man that cannot describe the other?

We all feel as individuals a certain way, and it changes day by day or moment by moment, but I tend to consider that process at its root to be the embodied cognition inherent in being able to perceive, ie a baseline concept of self. It seems shaped by the complex of enduring physical and psychological factors, which themselves have iterations of themes which we consider thoughts and its those and social factors which go onto overlay and shape the feelings we have. Sometimes they can result in alignments with instincts to create resonances we call emotions. I think though there are other types of resonances than the ones we are familiar with, and that they speak to the architecture of how we're all generally built. In the domain of psychology they might be the things that the archetypes work with, but in the physical domain I think sexual differentiation probably points to their being distinct male and female modalities of being - as well evolved pathways of physical and psychological alignments. I think modern definitions of gender are social constructs built on many factors of which one is this sexual alignment.... perhaps equivalent in some roundabout way to traditions which talk about chakras or meridians and concepts of balance and alignment. So if you can agree on a definition of what it means to feel, and what a gender is, then you can answer your question. But for me the mechanism of feeling gender is most aptly approached by the mechanisms that gender incorporate which are based on the physical characteristics derived from sexual differentiation as the target. That is not to say you cannot be a gender of the opposite sex, indeed because I think that gender is so much more a complex thing than the meat and potatos of sexual organs themselves, that to feel a gender can even be so much more than to feel a sex! :whistle: :blink: