The Force? Immanent or Transcendent?

It's a bit more subtle than that, Adder, though it would seem that I'll have to repeat myself a third time for the sheer amount of misdirection that resulted in this impression...

It is of very limited concern to me if people believe they perceived something, or what value they derive from what ever practice or belief. If I'm feeling overly pedantic I might object to the "real to me" manner of speech at times employed in such confessions, but at the end of the day I won't interrupt anyone's meditation and demand to see evidence that they were projecting into a spirit world until my rude intrusion.

That being said, I have no such reservations when it comes to people claiming to be witness to mystical forces above and beyond the strictly personal and subjective. In their post #354475 Fyxe explicitly and in no uncertain terms stated that in his belief the Force is not confined to the minds of her subjects, but is real in some further sense of the word. He went on to make further claims about it in his post #354520 , where they said that it is a "power of experience to mentally control the environment (emphasis added)", and implied that it was comparable in some way to physical forces.

These are not "real to me" claims, these are claims about what would be real to all, and what would at least in its effects count as simple enough to be controlled, repeated, and measured. I ignored so far Fyxe's claims about being a Reiki master - in part because I figured that if this meant anything they would have learned that Reiki is spelt with an 'i' at the end, rather than an 'e' well enough to not make that mistake several times over - but that's a claim of a power to provide medical aid by magical means. That, too, is not a mere "real to me" claim. It can in fact be quite a dangerous one and I feel no obligation to treat it tenderly. People pay money for such "services", even forego real medical treatment believing to be better off with the sorcerers, despite the mounting masses of readily available evidence to the contrary.

To a fair extent I appreciate what you are saying, Adder, that there is a meaningful distinction between the limits of experience and the limits of knowledge, but the debate that sprung up here is not due to my misapplication of one in a realm reigned by the other. Fyxe is trying to have it both ways, to make bold claims in the knowledge-domain (for lack of a more swift yet accurate way to refer to that modality), yet because they are lacking all of the evidence to back it up in that domain they try also to only have to defend it in the experience-domain. So Fyxe pushes both the concrete claims of real-world-impacting magical powers, but upon the first challenge pretends like all they were proposing are vague claims of subjective perception and personal meaning, knowing that these I have no means of chipping at. I shall leave it to the judgement of our readers to decide if or who of us is conducting the discussion in good faith, but I shall as well insist that I make no category error in addressing claims about an intersubjective, possibly external world with the same approach as we would use any other day to address any other claim about that same intersubjective, possibly external world.

Gisteron wrote: We are, after all, dealing with yet another thread that was about a mostly different question that you just hijacked again to preach your own gospel instead of packing it up in a neat little sermon to be posted where those belong.

LMAO,... Fascinating. your bias knows no bounds does it gist...

Blessed be To you.
This is to help some ....maybe just one more person to understand a different perspective
This is only my perspective of what I was shown and given feelings for.and this is going to be very hard to explain. on a typed message without actually feeling and seen it. but here it goes bear with me please.

Is there Perfect love? yes .
truth? truth will be more You have almost have to separate that for each situation I will try to explain.
Same thing with perfection Except with perfection I think you can only have it when it applies to love.

Let's start with your life and my life we can look back and remember all of the experiences we've had the goals the ups and Downs the passions the fights the love and everything in between We could almost play it like a movie so everyone could see it can you imagine if other people could watch the movie through your eyes and also feel all of your emotions you felt your whole life.

Now you take one big step back from yourself and now you're looking at a wall that has hundreds of pictures or let's call it postcards on the wall.
You think that's very interesting all these different postcards of places and families across the world.
So you decide to take one step closer and look at a different picture and now this picture turns into a movie and it starts to play and you can feel and see all the emotions through someone else's eyes.

Then you repeat this by stepping back looking at a different picture and then taking one step forward and Re living the life of a different time period through someone else's eyes.


Then after looking at countless number of these lives you realize even the Room that you are standing in is Really just inside the lobby of a great movie theater and you feel the connection with everyone around you......
And you realize this goes on for Ever except you realize there is no time or space every time you decide to go In a different direction or a Room everything starts all over. From the beginning telling a different story.

Then you realize the more you get disconnected from one Room that you feel total love and oneness with everyone around you but as you step into a Room or you look close into a postcard to start watching a new movie you feel the separation And disconnection from everyone else around you and especially the people in the other rooms.
You feel like it's just you taking on the world and only you can know what you're feeling and experiencing.
And you strive very hard for your perfection. And all the goals you set for yourself to set yourself apart from everyone else to be special to be known to be heard. You feel this is true life and the meaning of it.

I hope you understood a little of what I was trying to say it's very hard to explain.
And also it's like you can stand in this dark Room and believe and say "I am "
and then you can immediately walk into a Room and live the life of whatever you wanted to.

And you truly set all your boundaries and limitations for that particular life experience.
Even if that life experience was just to come down and break limitations you wanted to know how it would feel To break limitations that were set before you to feel what it would be like to overcome.
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I know for some this will sound like craziness but we have our own perspective on everything for example if your fingers were to describe a lemon would be something different then what the nose would explain his experience was with it.
That doesn't mean it's wrong or the forces less real it's just different
It's the same with us listening to someone from 2000 years ago explain to us what the forces is.
Even if you could repeat and measure the frequency that the Earth gives off continually. the force can give a million different frequencies off at the same time even that would not prove anything.
It seems to me anyway the only way to experience the force is you're going to have to disconnect yourself from what you know in your analytical thinking and Step back into let's call it a very dark Room and just experience what you see and feel
I know this is crazy to most of you.
But this is just my 2 cents and experience

That is very interesting descripton force!~
Now I dont know about experienceing all the other lives and what not but I do know how I experience my life and I know what I know and feel. In my energy work I do see consistent and reproducable results. I know some like gist would not believe it but its obvious that he sees some truth in what I was saying and he is in denaal of even the possibility and really sort of projecting his fears onto me. I can feel that in his repiies energetically. In that regard I have stated my position and if there is no new information given I think the conversation will not go much further. but I like that you tried to explain things as you have. good job for the effort,

Fyxe wrote:

Gisteron wrote: We are, after all, dealing with yet another thread that was about a mostly different question that you just hijacked again to preach your own gospel instead of packing it up in a neat little sermon to be posted where those belong.

LMAO,... Fascinating. your bias knows no bounds does it gist...

Actually let me finish this by saying the force is definately immanent. How can it be anything else? We we have access to the power then it must exist in our realm. And we definately have access to it!

Immanent.

The ability to completely understand it would be transcendent.