The Force? Immanent or Transcendent?

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21 Jul 2020 19:16 #353454 by LuckyBamboo
The Force? Immanent or Transcendent? was created by LuckyBamboo
Hello. This is a short post, the title is a summary of all this.
If someone can help me with this one.
Is the Force Immanent or Transcendent?
Here: two links for more information.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendence_(religion)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immanence

Thank you.

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21 Jul 2020 19:52 #353455 by Edan
Well, the real question is 'what is the force' and you will not get a consistent answer between members. I would say that it is what you believe it to be. It doesn't answer your question, but there is no 'answer'.

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21 Jul 2020 21:24 #353458 by Gisteron

LuckyBamboo wrote: Is the Force Immanent or Transcendent?

What's the difference? Yes, you have linked two articles, and luckily both start with a definition of the respective term which I presume is all we need for the question, provided that your usage of the terms is consistent with those definitions. What I'm asking is more subtle than that:

Consider a world where there are two gods or "forces", if we so please. Let one be transcendent and the other immanent. Yet both are real and both act upon the world in such a way as to warrant her inhabitants belief in one or both of those deities. If you and I were inhabitants of that world, what sort of test could we perform to identify whether there is one deity that is both, or one deity that is either transcendent and not immanent or immanent and not transcendent, or two deities, one of each type?

Coming back to our world, we can face again the question you posed. Assuming there is a higher power of some sort we shall for now call "The Force" that is real in the sense that it interacts with the natural world in some detectable fashion, how would one try and go about finding out an answer to your question? What sort of practical difference could we see with the means available to us, between the Force being one, or the other, or both? Perhaps if we find the test that would yield the answer to your question, we can recover it. And if no such test can be conceived of, then... well, what does the question even mean at that point, practically speaking?

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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22 Jul 2020 00:08 #353462 by Adder
Tricky, I'd say best not to define the Force in terms of material, since they already have their own terms. I think immanence and transcendental are attributes of information, rather than some absolute nature of anything. Sometimes I like to think the Force best represents the net heat of ones irons in the fire..... not that a Jedi owns any irons but rather as a metaphor for the mixing of inner awareness and outer awareness. In this way it translates to the domain of the outer as mapping causality and its associated risk management (the how of it, and how we relate to that). So... if you have effective avenues of awareness, then your information is more useful and your actions can be more novel to enable energetic, effective and efficient use of resources.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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24 Jul 2020 18:25 #353489 by Carlos.Martinez3
What things are and what they can be - can be as different as fingerprints them self’s. I’m a Pastor so I can share what things are to me and to others. Each discription of what the Force is to individuals can be as general as “everything in everything “ or as specific and as intimate as personal can get. It all depends on the Actual use. Hope is rarley un benifishal.
We have the gist and right to create our bliss as well as our faiths and practices. It’s our choice.

A testimony of which is “better” will never compare to the experience of being a part.

Im more a Hogwarts Gryffindor colors my self - maroon and gold

Why ask which house is best? What can they do - what can they free aaaaaaaaah!!! That my friend... I’m on it !

I’ve wholeheartedly practice my modern day Jediism in a very direct way. Call it transendental at times - knowing that I am a part of everything in a - I’m a part of the “hoop” not the “hoops” round me - at times screams at me and others around. It’s sometimes more than obvious in me and in others.
Personally : there are moments everything for me is at a “equal mark” :::: it’s the inherent worth idea but when it happens - I’m there.



For me those moments share definitions

But that’s me- most time I’m defining the actions - after trying to figure out what has happened but I’m a action type myself.
Remeber - Modern day Jediism is made of what’s already there. How would YOU discribe your experiences?

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27 Jul 2020 15:38 #353515 by forceuser
There is a lot of opinions on the force and it's true.
Really our perspective is skewed based on our experience believes and what we were taught growing up.

I don't have it figured out yet but it seems like God and the force are very similar.
It's almost like the force created God to be an example to this particular world and to certain people.
From my experience as a youth I have had many Americans happen and been led by were called the Holy Spirit for sure


And as I got older and learned different things.
I actually heard the force talk to me
To warn me about things that were going to happen .

Or at different times it was not a voice I heard but pictures and the emotions attached to them after I asked a question I would see in my mind are you can call it 3rd eye.

I am just one simple person but if anyone's interested I just started making videos this week the 1 I made to day was on the topic God and the force

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11 Sep 2020 03:07 #354475 by Fyxe
So none of these replies really say much if you ask me. The force must be what it is and cannot be what it is not. It seems most here feel the force is just this imaginary part of the mind but not real in any sense of the word. In other words it's made up from our minds. I dont believe this because I have touched the force first hand. I think a few select number of us here have actually done this and the result amazingly transformed us. We are the morpheus. A few beyond that might be like neo, have some idea it exists but mo understanding. The rest, really the ones that make up any definition or accept any other definition are the ones that are really asleep. Going through the world on auto pilot with no true understanding that the force is actually a real thing that can be tapped into and communed with. It is alive, living breathing and evolving, just like we are. Find that connection and you will find true power over the very elements themselves.

A true teacher would never tell you what to do. But he would give you the knowledge with which you could decide what would be best for you to do

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11 Sep 2020 04:19 #354477 by forceuser

Fyxe wrote: So none of these replies really say much if you ask me. The force must be what it is and cannot be what it is not. It seems most here feel the force is just this imaginary part of the mind but not real in any sense of the word. In other words it's made up from our minds. I dont believe this because I have touched the force first hand. I think a few select number of us here have actually done this and the result amazingly transformed us. We are the morpheus. A few beyond that might be like neo, have some idea it exists but mo understanding. The rest, really the ones that make up any definition or accept any other definition are the ones that are really asleep. Going through the world on auto pilot with no true understanding that the force is actually a real thing that can be tapped into and communed with. It is alive, living breathing and evolving, just like we are. Find that connection and you will find true power over the very elements themselves.

You are so right I'm sure there's others that have more experience than me but I have felt the Earth breathe and it is spoken Both at times in my ears other times in my soul and other times in my head.
I have moved physical objects with just my mind when I was connected with I guess you call it the force.
And one time I actually created a living flesh poltergeist when I was 16 years old that scared my mom and sister to death just by feeling believing and seen the force and what is possible that I wanted to create.
And so much more is possible it is only limited to what we feel and believe.
But from my brief understanding we all are connected and/or as one and can do anything it's all about love and just experiencing New things
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11 Sep 2020 05:50 - 11 Sep 2020 05:53 #354479 by Adder
Isn't everything we experience made up by the mind experiencing it, its just a matter of how well or how badly it relates to what really is outside the mind. And how best to talk about how to navigate it all?

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 11 Sep 2020 05:53 by Adder.

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11 Sep 2020 08:58 #354480 by Gisteron

Fyxe wrote: The force must be what it is...

So what would that be, then, exactly? And who gets to determine that, anyway?


It seems most here feel the force is just this imaginary part of the mind but not real in any sense of the word.

Does it? Perhaps you are speaking to a different selection of "most here" than me.


In other words it's made up from our minds. I dont believe this because I have touched the force first hand.

There is any number of things that are in part or in full product of our minds that we still have arbitrarily intense personal connections with. As Adder points out, it can even be argued that even the "most real" things out there only ever interact with us filtered through our perception and our mind's processing, and never directly. In some sense, everything we experience is at least to some extent contributed to by our minds. Having a personal experience with it doesn't change that. If anything, that's precisely what makes it so.


I think a few select number of us here have actually done this and the result amazingly transformed us. We are the morpheus. A few beyond that might be like neo, have some idea it exists but mo understanding. The rest, really the ones that make up any definition or accept any other definition are the ones that are really asleep.

Yeah, well, until you "enlightened ones" get around to stating what this "this" you have done is even supposed to be, and provide any sort of indication over and above your say-so that you have or indeed could have done any part of this "this", your self-elevation to a vague spiritual mastery shall remain unimpressive, if not meaningless, to the rest of us lowly peasants.


Going through the world on auto pilot with no true understanding that the force is actually a real thing that can be tapped into and communed with. It is alive, living breathing and evolving, just like we are.

I can replace the force in this statement with unicorns. Will that sort of talking down to you convince you that they, too, are real, alive, and that you can share in their magic? What if I replaced the force with Jesus? Or your personal guardian angel Nememiah? What about this fake pity sounds like an argument to you, if it is used to propose anything you are not already convinced of and committed to?

If you really cared to any extent about whether or not anyone - including yourself - sincerely believed what ever it is you are even proposing (I'll quit pretending for a moment that you have at all clearly defined what it is you are talking about aside from it "not being what it is not"), then instead of wasting our time with a frankly condescending pep-talk you would have long presented some sort of reason to compel such belief.


Find that connection and you will find true power over the very elements themselves.

And of course we have to make it sound like a cheap scam, too, don't we... What is this "true power over the very elements themselves" that you promise? And what are these "very elements themselves" in their own right? How does any of it work? What does it look like if someone has versus if they do not? See, this is just pretty-talk. It's the carrot you try to lure those in with who were not quite following eagerly already after you talked down to them in the sentences prior. If you meant to say something of substance, you would have gotten right to it and this gibberish wouldn't even be here.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned

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