Free Thought or Dogma?

Thanks for your responses I am deeply appreciative of them and I do reflect quite a lot on your words. I am struggling to cope with my life lately with work and personal relationships and that attitude may be reflected in my posts. I Apologise.

I expressed um, negative opinions about TOTJO, which in my opinion is never well received by the accused and that negativity created by an abrasive and unpleasant rhetoric by the accuser creates division. I have a habit of being critical, sceptical and sometimes rude.

However in my lay opinion, religion is a subject that tries to open positive creative peaceful emotions ideas and to help develop cooperation and loving relationships.

The world can be peaceful or extremely negative and a lot of people are seeking answers, why do they suffer? Why are hate crimes so abundant? What is Evil? Why does Evil happen? People look for solace and closure in religions to ‘guide’ and ‘heal’ and ‘grow’ reflecting on their actions in a peaceful pleasant manner with helpful rhetoric.

I do feel offended that religion could be based on or synonymous with a Hollywood Movie it doesn't in my opinion lend credibility to the faith of Jediism...

Therefore Jediism it’s not really an academic subject, it cannot be. Jediism is nothing more than drawing morals from cartoons like Mickey Mouse. I understand that everyone on TOTJO is an individual with complex needs, emotions and ideas perhaps even have many influences to draw upon with diverse interpretations of history, science and philosophy inspiring their beliefs as a Jedi. Yet TOTJO is synonymous with a 'fiction' called Star Wars, it’s almost like an invitation to use other fairy tales to use as a 'vehicle' to highlight some more ideas, for the pursuit of personal growth in spiritual knowledge.

So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

Ariane wrote: I do feel offended that religion could be based on or synonymous with a Hollywood Movie it doesn't in my opinion lend credibility to the faith of Jediism...

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'fake' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

Ariane wrote: So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

And what is a genuine religion without analogy and myth to guide and inform the follower?

For me, Jediism is a pantheistic belief system guided by the principles of the Jedi Code. The Code seems to be where the TOTJO leaves Star Wars behind and creates a new, genuine religion embracing the nature and sanctity of life based on a synthesis of all belief systems; science, history, philosophy and world religions.

Perhaps beginning the Initiate Program will help you better understand the Temple's understanding and acceptance of myth as a vehicle for sharing a universal message transcendent of the 'characters'.

Edan wrote: I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'false' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

I am offended for a few reasons, Edan, I am guessing your question is rhetorical...

But, here is my answer. It's spirituality that we are talking about, not a heavily commercialised Star Wars saga that has no basis in reality. Popular fiction has been drawn upon to promote ideals and many other principles simply because its fun and popular.

The popularity of Star Wars makes it more tempting for an audience to walk into a belief system, its basically an ulterior motive with good intentions but its misleading, its idolatry. People feel and want to connect with a Jedi because they covet those idols and the 'image', its just not a good spiritual progression. Jediism has become like a tourist consumer trap.

Perhaps what is missing is an example:

Lets just say I was thirsty people who are thirsty begin walking into a synagogue and telling stories about a life force called Coca Cola with a banner up suggesting the drink helps replenish energy and therefore is idolised for as a rejuvenate life force that permeates all cellular structures. What is created in that truth is an exaggeration of the truth and it doesn't make any sense why people would highlight such a trivial issue as that.

Much like how the Star Wars franchise became exaggerated. Look, you could draw or create social truth from anything within culture. It doesn't make it something 'special' every cultural product which is aesthetically beautiful or ugly can become spiritually orientated.

But I believe a genuine religion wouldn't need a fiction but instead to place values upon all things. A willing person can become the truth through good actions, to become a real role model, rather than a character that doesn't exist. If anything its disappointing.

L & L

Ariane, I want to tell you a personal story that may be able to help you see from my perspective.

Growing up I had no role models. My parents were not people I could look up to, I didn't feel strongly associated with the church I grew up in, I looked up to teachers but I didn't know them personally, they were an authority figure. I had very few friends and none of them were more experienced. I was the adult of my household and raised my siblings. Who was I to look up to?

I've always been an avid reader ever since I could remember. But the more I read, the more I found characters who inspired me. I found role models and inspiration in books, movies, TV shows, and even video games.

Master Kai Lone Wolf, Warchief Thrall, Mage Jaina Proudmore, Prince Arthas Menethil, Illidan Stormrage, Richard Rahl the Seeker of Truth, Bowen Knight of the Old Code, Doctor Daniel Jackson, Colonel Jack O'Niel, Captain Samantha Carter, Jedi Master Obi-Wan Kenobi, Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn, Jedi Master Luke Skywalker, Wedge Antilles, Rand the Dragon Reborn, Perrin Aybara, Aragorn Elessar, Samwise Gamgee, Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Paul Muad'Dib Atreides, Gurney Halak, Duncan Idaho, Jedi Master Plo Koon, Knight Mage Kellen Tavadon, Wild Mage Idalia Tavadon.

These were my role models and heroes (and sometimes examples). Myths don't have to be old to have an impact. These stories and the people in them inspired me in a way I didn't understand at the time. But I knew I wanted to be them. So I started living my life as best I could by the morals they portrayed. My life could have gone anywhere. I could easily have become a negative, bitter, judgmental person. But my (fictional) role models were not. So I managed to overcome my own troubles and become the person I am today (who still needs work ). I see the strength of my heroes within me now. And although I plan on being that kind of role model for my daughter (who is named after one of those fictional heroes ) I am absolutely looking forward to the day that I can read to her and share with her my favorite stories.

Personally, Jediism is a philosophy more than a religion (for me). But this place teaches me about myself and about being open minded more than I've ever had anywhere else. Although for me, Jediism itself was lacking the spirituality I was so desperately looking for (that some people do manage to find here), its members lead me to where I ultimately needed to go and still help me when I get stuck. For me, this place is the community center that I can go to for chats, for help, or good conversation.

I'd go so far to say that all religion uses fiction. Nothing brings a point across like a good story. I grew up in a Christian household so my only example this early in the morning is that if you believe that the Bible is fact, even Jesus used stories (parables) in his teachings. And in shamanism, many of the teachings I get are in story or symbolism (although that may have to do with me because that's the easiest way I'm inspired but I remember reading that that's the way many people hear from their guides as well).

I know my heroes aren't "real" people. I knew that as a kid (although I wished with all my heart I could be them or live in their world (which isn't such a smart idea on most lol) ). But if something inspires you, if you can find something you can use in your day-to-day to help you get through, if you can learn valuable lessons, why ignore them? I don't think Jediism is for everyone. It has its problems like any other system. But just because its inspiration comes from a modern myth (which has a lot of old mythologies behind it) I don't think it should be discounted out-of-hand.

And I hope I'm making some sort of sense, I was trying to get this out quickly...that heroine-named baby isn't going to self-entertain for long

Ariane wrote: Jediism is nothing more than drawing morals from cartoons like Mickey Mouse... TOTJO is synonymous with a 'fiction' called Star Wars, it’s almost like an invitation to use other fairy tales to use as a 'vehicle' to highlight some more ideas, for the pursuit of personal growth in spiritual knowledge.

First of all, what's wrong with using a fiction as a vehicle? I could direct you to the Campbell lectures but seeing as you seem not influenced much by them until now, perhaps this is an opportunity for us to hear an outsider's opinion on what exactly is weak about art and fiction as a medium of communication and expression. Please, go ahead.

But evenso, we have this thing called the home page here, where at the very beginning it states

We are not a community of Star Wars roleplayers, but a church of the Jediism religion. The Jedi at this site are not the same as those portrayed within the Star Wars franchise.

(emphasis added)
And as if that wasn't quite enough to distance TOTJO from the fiction, we also have an FAQ where literally the first paragraph reads

First of all, TotJO is not a role-playing site. If you are joining purely to wear a badge reading "I'm a Jedi" then TotJO is not for you. You will not learn mystical powers or learn to build lightsabers. Whilst some of the members enjoy Star Wars, we are not Star Wars fan community. We are not affiliated, nor do we wish to become affiliated, with any LucasArts or George Lucas products and/or services.

However, I shall stay open-minded for now. Feel free to present us with evidence of us drawing our morals from the Star Wars.

So why not choose/create a genuine religion that uses science and vastly superior ideas than that of Mickey Mouse/Star Wars/Cinderella and other laughable stories.

Is it not better to create a genuine religion?

I've posed the question sort of jokingly before, but since you keep pressing it, would you kindly name us one religion current or past that ever did use anything "superior" to more or less laughable myths, let alone science? I realize that this is pending a definition of "superior" and "genuine religion", respectively, so you may be meaning something that is in a way correct, but from the dictionaries I use and the observations I came to make it seems to me that the moment a belief construct is based on something more solid than fairy tales we usually don't call them religions anymore, genuine or not.

I can understand what she's saying just from a personal perspective. When I came in here I thought alot of what we had to offer was based on the movies. As I have done my own personal studies, the dissection of our jedi code, thr 21 maxims, and of course the IP of the Temple...my point being over the course of four years and ten months I have been at this temple alot is based off free thought through the forums, through sermons, I dont think its alot of religious dogma or, people who worship starwars. Our belief does have some foundations of our own such as thejedi code but, were a temple that is very open to discussion nothing is set in stone and I believe we are ever learning about ourselves and others. I have studied the worlds religions extensively several times, been A Pastor of a church, been to other orders apart from this. I have awoken from what I have learned from TOTJO from being jyst someone who loves Starwars to a person who believes in The Force, belueves in the tenets of this temple as a way of life use them every day. I hope this doesn't offend you me say I am really not disagreeing with you but, rather sharing my testimony I hope it helps.

why would you promote veganism at a barbeque?

did someones dogma pee on your karma?

every religion uses fictional characters from made up stories to express moral truths

being offended is a choice

its impossible to become wise if you refuse to accept that youve been wrong

use whatever source of inspiration you can relate to

be open to new ideas

its one thing to tell people what you believe is the best version of right or true - its something else altogether to think theyre supposed to accept it

use evidence and credible sources to validate your assertions

have a nice day

Ariane wrote:

Edan wrote: I think the question that perhaps you should be asking, is not why we have created a 'false' religion, but why you are so offended by it.

I am offended for a few reasons, Edan, I am guessing your question is rhetorical...

It wasn't a rhetorical question...

But, here is my answer. It's spirituality that we are talking about, not a heavily commercialised Star Wars saga that has no basis in reality. Popular fiction has been drawn upon to promote ideals and many other principles simply because its fun and popular.

The popularity of Star Wars makes it more tempting for an audience to walk into a belief system, its basically an ulterior motive with good intentions but its misleading, its idolatry. People feel and want to connect with a Jedi because they covet those idols and the 'image', its just not a good spiritual progression. Jediism has become like a tourist consumer trap.

You've said what it is that offends you, but why does it offend you? I'm not sure how to better put this... why do you let something that you see as wrong get to you so much? You seem to expect us to do something about your feeling of offense... Why do you expect us to change on your behalf?

You don't have to answer here... Just questions you might want to think about.

There are people that come here because of the films (many people), but only those who really connect with it as a path will stay. Anyone looking for fiction is unlikely to stick around. The people here, replying this thread, they believe in a spiritual path that is nothing to do with film.