Free Thought or Dogma?

Greetings fellow Jedi,

My question is: why not create a religion which has much more extensive training programme to honour the universe/life/people/events rather than focusing on silly characters portrayed by actors.

Jediism tries to assert a meaningful unity between humans/nature and the universe and is a point of meditation that brings about enlightenment. It does however also worship story tellers and promote ideas like a so called unified (God) force binding all things together. 'The force' as portrayed in a Star Wars movie a New Hope a type of living and sentient transcendental entity that can help you conquer death like a skill that needs to be learned.

There are tons of films to choose from why not worship the creators of films like Avatar, the Na'vi, an alien race, worship a goddess named Eywa. Or venerate the book Lord of Light (1967) a science fiction/fantasy novel by American author Roger Zelazny, a nobleman re-creates a rival religious movement to dethrone a false pantheon of "Gods".

Or why not venerate the TV series Stargate SG-1, the supposed ancient gods are revealed to be powerful, parasitic aliens posing as supernatural beings, to exploit mankind. These films are all fake much like Star Wars.

And other religions like Christianity based on ancient stories as depicted in video below




I think Jediism is a belief system which is very crude. Films should like Prometheus (which explores the myth that human life did not arise spontaneously by chance that "Engineers", created life on earth) should stay in the fiction section.

I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

Light and Love

Ariane wrote: I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

You seem to have missed it.

Jediism encourages free thinking. No single Jedi holds the same beliefs as any other. Each individual in this community is free to decide for themselves what it is that they believe, even if those beliefs are in conflict with what is presented, for example, in the Initiate Programme.

Everything here is open to interpretation, and the teaching material on this site is meant to help guide you toward possible understandings of your personal spiritual path and inspire you to think about yourself and your relationship with others and the universe.

There is value in fiction, particularly in the case of Jediism. The fiction that many Jedi cherish stems from authentic spiritual and philosophical sources.

The Force is the unifying concept within the Jedi community, but "the Force" can and does mean different things to different people. Some Jedi believe in "a so called unified (God) force binding all things together," others don't.

There are many ways of approaching Jediism. Despite your claim that Jediism is "too crude to inspire people who are free thinkers," it seems as though you've chosen to put it in a box and examine it from a very narrow perspective.

Arcade I am sorry I edited my Opening Post too much,

But yes you have understood my question and yes I agree its me who is narrow minded... But you cannot ever be too open minded either.

Also TOTJO has inspired me too, although its very crude I like what I learned and I am going to make a short animation about Jediism.

Thanks for your reply

Ariane wrote: Arcade I am sorry I edited my Opening Post too much,

It does seem to read differently after your edits.

I don't think I fully understood your original post, Ariane. Unfortunately, I need to run off, but perhaps someone else will respond with thoughts that are more relevant to your intended message and related concerns.

Ariane wrote: I just get offended because its merging fiction with religious ideas/ideologies, what is the point...

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

You'll find it does happens often so if it offends you might have to watch out for that.... but its not part of the 'dogma', not here at least. Some other Jedi groups might associate more closely with particular elements of the fiction. I think most people here use various sources from both science, history and fictional sources - its certainly not limited to Star Wars.

Here we rather use anything and everything which might have value for spiritual growth, and it happens to be called Jediism. This 'dogma' you speak of at TOTJO... where is it? Something might appear dogmatic, but is it actually enforced as dogma? Is it meant to be interpreted as a guide? Even the TOTJO Doctrine is assessed for improvement/change, but it is designed to be as open and universal as possible while still trying to be functionally relevant.

Another interesting question is why call it Jediism, why use 'Jedi' if its not so linked to the particular fiction, but that is based on that its a (relatively) modern interpretation of historical religious and human spirit and culture (as intended during Star Wars creation) which thus as 'Jedi' we embrace and try to take forward into the future as a more useful religion/path/philosophy.

The inspiration behind the general approach to Jediism as per this temple is not a focus on the story itself nor the characters, but on the nature and purpose behind this type of storytelling at all - using storytelling as a mirror for the human condition and the pursuit of understanding what it is all about for not only each individual, but for humanity as a whole. The form through which we observe our humanity in this way is through the archetype of the "hero" and as Joseph Campbell explains The Hero's Journey (something we learn a bit about in the Initiates Program here). The model of the Jedi is simply one of many chosen vehicles through which we connect ourselves with the nature of the Hero as a symbol, but really, most all examples of heroes are the same. Here, we are not limited to only using the Jedi to connect to this reflection (no, not even here at TOTJO). You are free to use any example you wish, in which helps you accomplish the same thing in a way that reveals the commonality between you and every person around you in a connected system of life and existence for which we may call The Force.

As far as I know, we do not practice Dogma here at this temple (at least I hope not). We simply observe the nature of our lives and share what we are learning together. Nothing more. The format we have chosen with this temple and its religious aspect has much to do with serving a familiar interface to anybody and everybody who naturally resonates with it for one reason or another - but even then, we do not see religion in such a traditional sense as, for example, your local christian might. It is much more broad and connected to the nature of mythology for which lies behind ALL present religions in modern day, in company with the format of a more modern mythological storytelling that is Star Wars and the Jedi.

Think beyond the story, the characters, the gimmicks. Think past dogma, social tradition, and ideals. Think back to the origin of the purpose of all of it, and then take a look at where we are today with it and where we wish to go with it, with the intention of Not forgetting the roots of religion - the nature and purpose of mythology. This, I feel is the aim of this temple's presentation of the Jedi and Jediism.

Ariane wrote: My question is: why not create a religion which has much more extensive training programme to honour the universe/life/people/events rather than focusing on silly characters portrayed by actors.

Could you show me please where in our training programme we focus on 'silly characters portrayed by actors'.

It does however also worship story tellers and promote ideas like a so called unified (God) force binding all things together. 'The force' as portrayed in a Star Wars movie a New Hope a type of living and sentient transcendental entity that can help you conquer death like a skill that needs to be learned.

I don't think anyone here worships story tellers, and the Force in the films is not necessarily the The Force of our members. I for one do not believe in a sentient Force.

There are tons of films to choose from why not worship the creators of films like Avatar, the Na'vi, an alien race, worship a goddess named Eywa. Or venerate the book Lord of Light (1967) a science fiction/fantasy novel by American author Roger Zelazny, a nobleman re-creates a rival religious movement to dethrone a false pantheon of "Gods".


Or why not venerate the TV series Stargate SG-1, the supposed ancient gods are revealed to be powerful, parasitic aliens posing as supernatural beings, to exploit mankind. These films are all fake much like Star Wars.

Fake as in acting, maybe not fake in some of the messages. This is why stories work so well, why the same stories come up time and time again, in media and in our passed on stories.

My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

If you cannot see that Jedi here give value to life, then I think you may not have read enough of our posts or our messages.
It's in our very doctrine.

Jediism as presented here is about as New Age as it gets. It either avoids making claims of the supernatural or makes them so vague that there might as well be none for all the meaning they carry. It recognizes all the myth behind it as myth rather than reality and insists that the stories from the other religions are really the same and equally mythical and harmless, and also that the other religions mostly see it that way when of course they don't. The moral precepts Jediism offers are in full or in part offered by other constructs of moral thought; and while not one of them is original to Jediism, Jedi still sort of kind of tend to think they made an invention or discovered something genuinely unique when of course they have neither.

So when you say that TOTJO Jediism insists on some ties to the Star Wars fiction, I don't know what you are talking about. If it insists on anything, it is on strictly not insisting on anything at all, ever, to the extent where even in clear-cut and solved issues uncertainty is not merely asserted but indeed even demanded.

I am grateful for the direction Jediism gave me back in the day, but my eventual conclusions I came to on my own and I wouldn't have elected to be helped out by Jediism, had I not been the man I was back then. And as you surely noticed, I am by no means defending Jediism from criticism in general; however, what you seem to imply about this particular site is frankly incorrect and you could have known better had you read through as much as the front page at any point during the five months you had been registered.

Also, on a more light-hearted note:

Ariane wrote: My question is do we want a religion based on mythological dogma as presented by TOTJO or a genuine religion giving value to life rather than honouring films.

Wait, which one is it? Do you want a genuine religion, or one that is not based on mythological dogma? Make up your mind, you can't have both.

Gisteron wrote: So when you say that TOTJO Jediism insists on some ties to the Star Wars fiction, I don't know what you are talking about. If it insists on anything, it is on strictly not insisting on anything at all, ever, to the extent where even in clear-cut and solved issues uncertainty is not merely asserted but indeed even demanded.

But not insisting on something doesn't mean the same thing as saying never to insist over/with something. It just insists that nothing should insist unless you insist it to insist!? Did I get that right or did I mess it up
:silly:

Dogma is a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true. It serves as part of the primary basis of an ideology or belief system, and it cannot be changed or discarded without affecting the very system's paradigm, or the ideology itself.

~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma

The TotJO's premise - certainly that of its present clerical structure - is hardly dogmatic. And as others have pointed out, one does not find very much 'Star Wars' reverence here (although some of us may very much enjoy the story). What we are doing as best we can is to take from any inspirational source elements that can reconcile to Life on Life's terms, with all its inherent absurdities and paradoxes, to be able to see and live through the accounts of others in different places and times, to as fully as possible immersed in the 'experience of being alive'.

No matter what spiritual or religious ideologies one may want to apply, there has to be some medium through which those ideologies and the messages they vehicle are symbolised. That is, one doesn't just come up with an ideology - it has to come from somewhere, through experience, observation, contemplation ... All of these imply that things are going on. Events and the people who take part in them are all "silly characters portrayed by actors" (including us, when one really reflects on it), but whether the events are fictional or historical - or a little of both - they give us indispensable clues as to how we can live well, reconcile ourselves to mortality, determine 'just' and 'unjust' behaviours and generally not be too crass with one another. "Myth", remember, is not just an un-true story for entertainment, it is a 'story' that conveys metaphysical truth. That is, even if nothing in the story is factual, what it relates is what of the human condition that is true (or mostly) for all of us ...

But "silly characters portrayed by actors" has been for hundreds of generations a very reliable method of sharing mythic symbolism (ex. : Poetics by Aristotle). Yet, myth must be kept current - audiences, whether they be in an outdoor amphitheatre or a cinéma must be able to identify with what they are witnessing - or the mythic dimension becomes inaccessible. To this end, the archetypes that interplay in the heroic cycle are re-arranged, re-represented, updated and given a variety of conflicts, qualities and embarrassments pertinent to the time the story is told. The elements are the same as they have been for thousands of years, but we have replaced horses and chariots by high-speed chases, arrows and spears by machine guns and sometimes 'far away lands' by 'distant planets'.

Another thing I feel needs to be brought up here is that dogma is not something that is endemic to 'religious' structures only -- any time one upholds a chosen selection of principles and by one's own opinion of them has raised them to the pinnacle of "unshakable truth", that is also dogma. One's own desire/need to believe in particular guiding principles can serve as that "authority" which imposes the reverence to - and often the defence of - those principles, that then becomes as much dogma as those imposed from any outside authority.

Thus when we point our fingers at others' dogmatism, we should be very careful as to not to be pointing from the heart of our own. The proverbial pot, the proverbial kettle, the proverbial calling of "black" - which neither effectively are in this modern age of stainless steel.