Some schools/religions go too far

I wouldn't be surprised if the note was made by someone put up to it by some other chick who had some personal drama with her.

Proteus wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the note was made by someone put up to it by some other chick who had some personal drama with her.

This kind of thing has happened before (many times, if the experiences I've read of other BYU students online is to be believed); this is just the first time the incident went viral.

When my best friend went to BYU he told he had to have a council with a BYU educator over a perceived Honor Code violation of his (a student thought he was cheating on an exam and reported him). He was found innocent.

It would have been better if it was just a personal grudge though...sad that that would be better, huh?

Reliah wrote: If I were a guy I wouldn't want everyone seeing every inch of my girlfriend/wife anyway.
Maybe I just think that because I'm female. No idea.

To be honest... if I was dating someone, I'd feel exactly that way. But I'm the clingy jealous type.

...I'm working on it.

I apologize, LTK, I just saw the post with the picture and not the links so I was not exactly on topic. Forgive me, please.

Xiam wrote:

Reliah wrote: If I were a guy I wouldn't want everyone seeing every inch of my girlfriend/wife anyway.
Maybe I just think that because I'm female. No idea.

To be honest... if I was dating someone, I'd feel exactly that way. But I'm the clingy jealous type.

...I'm working on it.

I'm not sure if that has anything to do with being clingy or jealous, to be honest; and while I understand that people believe there are many types of "modesty" there really aren't. I understand not everyone cares to be modest, but that doesn't change the word in its self. If the students agreed to a code of some type, it should be honored as any other code should be honored and while it might be ridiculous to some to even have such a code, it exists for a reason and people are obviously okay with it. Some people might say our own code is extreme and not fully understand it, but that doesn't mean it's altered for them or pushed aside to avoid conflict. It exists and those who can uphold it and have decided to do so, should be held to it by other members who have sworn to the same code.

To me, personally, the instance of the BYU girl was extreme - but I have never read their honor code nor have known someone who has had an issue with it.

When it comes to religion, a lot of people do a lot of things that aren't exactly understandable. I'm fairly sure that modest dressing is the lesser of the weird things that go on.

Modesty is overrated to me! The body of a woman (especially a pretty woman) is a work of art that she sculpts and molds with the dieting, the exercise, the exfoliation. Maybe it's the musician in me, but a beautiful flower doesn't cover it's beauty. When it blooms, it blooms regardless of feeling modest. When it blooms, it adds to the aesthetic beauty of the world. Even if I may never posses such a lovely beauty, I at least I am fortunate enough to witness it. Covering up that beauty only creates more longing for beauty, in my eyes. This is why I am in love with Southern California lol.

I think that's the point - to cover up the beauty of the flower so one longs for it more. Instead of sharing the beauty with everyone, you share it only with the person closest to you.. like.. you found the most flower that is most beautiful to you, only you will appreciate its beauty as it was meant to be appreciated; that flower covers its self so that those who would use its beauty or try to devalue its beauty - can't. The flower only allows you to see its true beauty at its fullest because you are gifts to one another.

If the flower is "unclaimed" it should cover itself until the person who will appreciate it and not use it finds it and can see past everything else and prove that they are the one.

I'm not saying to cover it completely, but I must honestly say that the most beautiful parts of a person are the eyes, face, and soul.

I'm fairly sure that modest dressing is the lesser of the weird things that go on.

They seem pretty obsessed by what other people do and policing it. I think this qualifies as one of those weirder things that go on.

If I were a guy I wouldn't want everyone seeing every inch of my girlfriend/wife anyway.
Maybe I just think that because I'm female. No idea.

I find that usually women are more concerned by this than men. I live by the canal and last summer a woman was topless on her boat. A woman on the tow path (opposite my garden) loudly complained about it. Her husband didn't say anything. The topless woman's husband accused the loud one of being a mouthy old cow. As the loud woman walked on, still moaning, she asked me if I could beleive that...Obviously I let her know I had no problem with it (considering my own culture as well as those I've been in contact with), but that I did have a problem with her disturbing the peace and annoying me as I'm just trying to chill out in my garden.

My point, after all this, being that I don't really care about what other people do, or whether they see every inch of me or my loved ones actually. What I do want is peace, quiet, and privacy. By privacy I mean that I do not like to feel like i am under observation, with people looking at me (and undoubtedly judging me) when I go about my business.


To be modest, in my mind, doesn't mean wearing an excessive amount of clothes, but first and foremost to mind one's own business and not to judge people.

Sure, I'm not saying there's not a time and place. In Winter or a business meeting, one might cover up. I'm talking about religious modesty (sorry for not being clearer). If a society can't view a woman's hair, face, shoulders, legs or even stomach, particularly in hot climates, without going insane, that would be viewed to me as extreme.
As for my flower metaphor lol.. I don't know of any flower (besides the cannabis sativa flower) that really is to be viewed by just one person. Most people who have nice private gardens even, want to show them off to guests on the occasion! lol I'm just saying, if a woman has got the goods to share, let her share!!!

In that situation, modest dressing needs policing as they agreed to a code. That's all I meant by the statement I said there. I should have elaborated more, I suppose.

Women have to be more concerned about it than men, I think. Some men aren't concerned because they like seeing. Please keep in mind I said "some". If we don't draw a line (and by "we" I mean society) somewhere with modesty, it would probably get a little crazy. There are already women wearing pasties in public which is neither modest or appropriate and it has nothing to do with judging, really. I try very much to understand why people do the things they do instead of judging, but that isn't the case with all people. Have you ever heard of people saying things along the lines of "asking" for rape because of the way a woman is dressed? It's the most absurd thing I've ever heard, I know, but there are people who truly believe that. Regardless of if it's absurd or not.

It is a fact that men are visual beings; more-so than women. I think some women are more aware of this fact than others.

There are varying extremes in modest dressing and then there is a line that continues on into various extremes of immodesty. But there is a line. A person who respects themselves and other people know the line and know when it is and isn't appropriate to cross it.


If someone is dressed inappropriately, to some, it is disturbing their "inner peace", if you will. I'm not speaking for myself here, but there are some people who are truly effected by this and there is no reason simple respect cannot be expected. They may not be physically hurting the person, but somehow the person is being "hurt" and there really is no reason for that. If there was, workplaces would not have dress-codes.

I can sense that this topic could be talked about in circles and do not wish to offend or upset anyone nor to become offended or upset. I can see both sides clearly and want you all to know that I judge no one - from those who have entered a code of modesty, to those who "never" dress modestly.

Also, if modesty is in the eye of the beholder, so is beauty.

Are men more visual beings? I don't think that's true.. It may be true that there is a quicker reaction time between seeing something arousing and being aroused.. That's just hardwired in us. But I don't think men can be categorized as more visual.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, very true. Yet, when the eye beholds much beauty, there is much much beauty to behold! hehehe

It is a fact that men are visual beings; more-so than women. I think some women are more aware of this fact than others

I've got to disagree here. I've known quite a few women who like looking at men just as much as men like looking at women, more in some cases.

And while I agree that you should stick to your promises, that girl's skirt was what, maybe two inches above hers knees and she was still wearing leggings so there wasn't any skin showing beyond her neck and hands. If that's really enough to provoke someone to 'wild thoughts', that to me says that there's something wrong with the person who can't control themselves, not with the attractive young woman who wanted to express herself on Valentines day with the wearing of a nice skirt. :pinch:

I'd say Ren said it best as to how I see things; as long as I have peace, quiet and privacy, I'm fine with anything. If women (or men), want to walk around flaunting their stuff, I'm comfortable enough in myself to not be provoked to any action. I might cat-whistle if a girl's wearing something really revealing, but that's just in good fun. :whistle:

http://www.seductionlabs.org/2007/07/24/why-men-are-more-visual/

So, you were talking in the context of visual arousal, gotcha! I was thinking about how my gf wants to buy every little thing she sees to decorate our apartment! Where's my gym in all this?! lol So, like I said, eye, brain, arousal... One direct connection!

Reliah wrote: http://www.seductionlabs.org/2007/07/24/why-men-are-more-visual/

Very interesting ideas there, but for clarity I feel that I must point out that there is no scientific evidence that men are more visual than women. The writer brought up some interesting thinking points, and perhaps more research should be done on the subject, but as it stands now on the whole there's no scientific basis to believe that there's a major divide in the way men and women view these things.

Not being augmentative here, (It's too hard to express emotion properly over the internet so i clarifying such things lol), just pointing it out.

Not to say that there aren't some differences...

I suppose I've just heard it so much I believed it as truth. I'm starting to realize that's the case in quite a few things, actually. I feel like I have blinders on most of the time and they're slowly being taken off.

I appreciate the discussion and thank you for your thoughts and patience. I have a lot to learn and even more to understand.

I believe women are far more visual than men. Women care about appearence. What men care about is "naughtiness". It's not about whether something (mini skirt for instance) looks good, it's about whether she dares (to put it on when everyone else is wearing jeans). And unless we're talking repulsive, If she wants to, so will he. Doesn't matter if she doesn't look like claudia schiffer or wears excessive clothing. (and that, is biology, not my opinion)

Also sometimes people feel clothing "enhances" the naked body (as well as "normal" make-up). Then there's the whole disguise/RP thing some people seem to like.

In Winter or a business meeting, one might cover up.

My father likes to show up in his 90's pink/purple shorts

I'm just saying, if a woman has got the goods to share, let her share!!!

Even if she doesn't. I've seen a lot of excessively fat, large-breasted, hairy men at the beach/pool. I've also seen women's breats which had gone through age, a dozen kids and gravity. I'm cool with it. In fact I really don't like your comment because it goes against what I beleive: That it shouldn't be hidden to avoid offence or put on display to please...

Identical people living the same lives under the same set of rules are not living what I call freedom.

Well, as a large hairy man who is abreast, I sparingly inflict the sight on anyone!! But I'm nice like that! Lol