Evil Hitler

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19 Jan 2018 23:41 #312651 by Brick
Replied by Brick on topic Evil Hitler

Rickie wrote: This is a spin off another discussion. I didn't want to introduce a distraction or tangent to the other thread.

I think I can say Hitler was evil and the leaders of the Nazi Party. It seems anyone that embraces the Nazi Party must not think of Hitler as evil? What am I missing here?


I think it really depends what you mean by 'anyone that embraces the Nazi Party'. Most Germans at the time embraced it, but I wouldn't view most Germans at that time as being evil.

Also, I think it matters to what degree they 'embrace' it? Prior to seizing power, going to war, and systematically exterminating millions of his own people, Hitler actually did a lot of good things.

Much of the world wanted him to succeed. He completely resurrected the German economy, he improved infrastructure, improved social mobility, played a part in creating the VolksWagen car and encouraged every family to own a car. So in THAT way, I can KIND OF see an argument in favour of certain ASPECTS of Nationalist-Socialist politics.

But generally speaking: yes Hitler was evil, yes the Nazis were evil, and yes anyone embracing Nazism is evil

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20 Jan 2018 00:05 #312655 by JLSpinner
Replied by JLSpinner on topic Evil Hitler
It's extremely easy to throw out extreme examples in order to debate or contradict what someone says without actually stopping to think about their point. I in no way think Arisaig "needs" to be defended. I don't expect sugar coating. I want us all to consider what is said before we argue and try to use logic and understanding. This isn't moderation, it's me saying "Dudes, are we really using flat earthers to argue in a morals debate?"

On a personal note...it's hard to talk on the forums when everyone reads you in your grown up voice. :-(
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20 Jan 2018 00:05 #312656 by Arisaig
Replied by Arisaig on topic Evil Hitler

MadHatter wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone these wrongdoings, im making a valid argument. Life is sacred, and I'd do anything to stop these acts.


By what right would you stop them? If you think that their morality is on the up and up by what right do you try to get involved? You have already said one man trying to stop the majority is to be ignored.
Further, how is it not condoning an act to call it moral?
To help your answer this is the actual definition of the word here.


Honestly, I don't have the moral right. I would if I could though, to protect those persecuted and harmed for their views. All life is equal, and given the power to stop it (be it morally right to or not), I would in a heartbeat... but unfortunately I cannot. I'd rather be deemed evil by the world and stop needless death than be good and let people die.

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20 Jan 2018 00:13 #312657 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Evil Hitler

JLSpinner wrote: It's

    On a personal note...it's hard to talk on the forums when everyone reads you in your grown up voice. :-(

Tone is hard to read and I feel the same way sometimes. Sorry for doing to you what frustrates me when talking myself.

Arisaig wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Arisaig wrote:

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone these wrongdoings, im making a valid argument. Life is sacred, and I'd do anything to stop these acts.


By what right would you stop them? If you think that their morality is on the up and up by what right do you try to get involved? You have already said one man trying to stop the majority is to be ignored.
Further, how is it not condoning an act to call it moral?
To help your answer this is the actual definition of the word here.


Honestly, I don't have the moral right. I would if I could though, to protect those persecuted and harmed for their views. All life is equal, and given the power to stop it (be it morally right to or not), I would in a heartbeat... but unfortunately I cannot. I'd rather be deemed evil by the world and stop needless death than be good and let people die.


But morality is concerning oneself with what is good or bad, so if you have no moral right ie what you are doing is not acting on the assumption that your actions are good or what you are trying to stop is bad what other right do you have to act? You have no legal right to act in this case. So without a moral imperative then why do you act and how do you call these people good when the morals of the day say they are not?

It also appears you missed my second question how do you not condone something when calling it moral. When someone says something is moral they are generally saying its right or just. So if you say yes this is moral that would be condoning it by common usage of the word.

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20 Jan 2018 00:17 #312659 by JLSpinner
Replied by JLSpinner on topic Evil Hitler
Don't mix morals and ethics. Morals are personal while ethics are typically judged as a socially acceptable view or act.
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20 Jan 2018 00:30 #312660 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Evil Hitler

JLSpinner wrote: Don't mix morals and ethics. Morals are personal while ethics are typically judged as a socially acceptable view or act.

But according to here , here , and here there is no requirement for it to be personal. It only has to concern what is right or wrong. It does not need to be personal. Whereas this , this and this shows that ethics tend to lend itself to group OR personal codes of right and wrong.

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20 Jan 2018 00:59 #312664 by JLSpinner
Replied by JLSpinner on topic Evil Hitler

MadHatter wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: Don't mix morals and ethics. Morals are personal while ethics are typically judged as a socially acceptable view or act.

But according to here , here , and here there is no requirement for it to be personal. It only has to concern what is right or wrong. It does not need to be personal. Whereas this , this and this shows that ethics tend to lend itself to group OR personal codes of right and wrong.


True, and I can link you to definitions that use the right phrasing to make it personal. Semantics. When we discuss morals the one who makes the judgement is you. You decide if it is right or wrong. I have much respect for you and doubt you base your judgement of right and wrong on anything other than YOUR own reasoning. Of course we are influenced, but we make the call

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20 Jan 2018 01:06 #312667 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Evil Hitler

JLSpinner wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: Don't mix morals and ethics. Morals are personal while ethics are typically judged as a socially acceptable view or act.

But according to here , here , and here there is no requirement for it to be personal. It only has to concern what is right or wrong. It does not need to be personal. Whereas this , this and this shows that ethics tend to lend itself to group OR personal codes of right and wrong.


True, and I can link you to definitions that use the right phrasing to make it personal. Semantics. When we discuss morals the one who makes the judgement is you. You decide if it is right or wrong. I have much respect for you and doubt you base your judgement of right and wrong on anything other than YOUR own reasoning. Of course we are influenced, but we make the call


Well we do have to have a base definition to work from if we are going to discuss a words meaning or even understand what the other person means when they use a word. A is A for both of us or it ceases to mean A for one of us and we are no longer talking about the same thing. Or to put it more simply if I call a table a chair and keep arguing that what you are pointing at is a chair we are both going to get confused if we do not agree on a definition. That is why dictionaries exist and are a good place to work from especially the more renowned or trusted ones like I linked.

You are right that we all operate from our own sense of right and wrong. However, for an action to become the norm in a place MOST people must agree with it or not think it bad enough to stand against. Hence group morals or ethics. And so if we call an act moral we are condoning or agreeing with it. Heck I would put forward that if you do not take steps to stop an act you are aware of that you condone the act by your own inaction.

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20 Jan 2018 01:11 #312668 by JLSpinner
Replied by JLSpinner on topic Evil Hitler
Not necessarily most people have to agree. Those with the power and influence need to agree. And sometimes inaction isn't due to unwillingness but the lack of possibility or opportunity.
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20 Jan 2018 01:15 #312669 by MadHatter
Replied by MadHatter on topic Evil Hitler

JLSpinner wrote: Not necessarily most people have to agree. Those with the power and influence need to agree. And sometimes inaction isn't due to unwillingness but the lack of possibility or opportunity.


I dont care how much those that hold power support something they cant do it if they do not have bulk support. That is how revolutions happen. We have seen it time and again in human history where a dictator holds a lot of power and most of the guns but is still fought against if they go too far.

Also there is always a way to act in opposition to something. Be it call the police, support the resistance, hide the victims etc. Or at least in my eyes. If you actually believe its wrong there is always a way to stand against it. That way might bring risk but it exists.

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