SUPREME COURT UPHOLDS LITTLE CAESAR’S RIGHT TO FEED CHRISTIAN EMPLOYEES TO LIONS

Jestor wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I recognize that not everyone shares my views; they do not hold life to be sacred. They have a desire to kill [strike]babies[/strike]what I consider to be a baby, and to do so with a clean conscience they will call it something else. That is there prerogative no matter how much I dislike it. But demanding that the government force people to support you in your crusade of murder… that is unreasonable.

And that is just how I feel about it.

Our lines on what constitutes a baby may be different...

Precisely, and Hobby Lobby's line is "conception", not "implantation." Thus, in their eyes, making those forms of contraceptives mentioned murder in their eyes. I'm sorry, but it's a privately held company that wants to sleep better at night. I don't have a problem wtih this.

The following is an excerpt from Letter to a Christian Nation, by Sam Harris.


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I believe life is precious and intrinsically divine, and I also believe that the Force is a part of all of us just as we are a part of the Force; we just happen to be in the foreground from our physical perspective. Therefore, to me, an abortion absent of suffering is morally fine because no matter what happens to it, it will return to and has always existed in the Force. This is why I'm only for abortion up to a certain point in the pregnancy. Then again, it's not up to me because I'm not the one who has to gestate a baby (although, if given the chance, I would love to.)

Wescli Wardest wrote:
That's just it. I do not consider a bunch of cells lumped in a mass a baby. I do consider it life; life that will become a baby.

People say that it cannot survive outside the womb and that is correct. Just as we cannot survive outside our "womb" or our life supporting habitat. How many people think they would survive if tossed out into space? :ohmy:

I consider that clump of cells, at that point, life like I consider my foot to be alive...

If I separate my foot from my body, it ceases to be alive...

When brain activity begins, for sure, I am beginning to consider it a life... But, my line is not too well defined, as I am unfamiliar with all the stages of an gestation...

As to your comment on us not surviving in space... Will we eventually? Have we just not reached that stage of our evolution? Im not thinking so, LOL....

The clump of cells is not an independent life form (in a relative way of speaking of "independent"), in my opinion, in that it cannot survive without the mother, even inside the womb...

It just matters where a line is drawn for the individual... And waht the picketers (for any protest) fail to realize...

Talk to me civilly, and we can have a great conversation... Come at me (bro) in a confrontational way, and I will be ready to defend... lol...

Just talking stuff out, lol, not striving to make grandiose plans of making you change your mind, just talking...

SteamBoat wrote: Precisely, and Hobby Lobby's line is "conception", not "implantation." Thus, in their eyes, making those forms of contraceptives mentioned murder in their eyes. I'm sorry, but it's a privately held company that wants to sleep better at night. I don't have a problem wtih this.

After more information trickles in, it makes an information easier to digest...

And, to make a more informed decision...

And, I do actually agree with you and Wescli on Hobby Lobby's stance...

Initially, with scant information, things always seem at their worst, lol....

While contraception, life, and abortion are part of this specific case, it is not what is important about the ruling. What is important is that this is the first time in the history of the United States Supreme Court that they have ruled that for profit businesses can hold religious views under federal law.

People say that Hobby Lobby is just concerned about a few contraceptives and it's not a big deal. They should be allowed to express and act on their beliefs without being forced to go against them by the federal government and Obamacare. Perhaps what they are asking for is not a big deal, but the precedent set by this decision is. There is no court higher than this one. It is now federal LAW that businesses with a small number of owners can attempt to exempt themselves from federal laws if the laws do not mesh with their religious beliefs. Hobby Lobby may have taken a relatively harmless approach given that there are still plenty of other options for contraception in this case, but that doesn't mean the next business will act responsibly.

When "ACME Widgets" owners proclaim that homosexuality is wrong according to their religious beliefs, they can now challenge anti-discrimination legislation because they have legal precedent to take that case all the way to SCOTUS. Their case, no matter how absurd, will have to be taken seriously because of this ruling. They likely would not win this case, but how many laws will now be challenged based on religious grounds? And who's to say which religious beliefs are right? A court appointed by politicians?

In an effort to shoot down one piece of contentious legislation (Obamacare) by using religion, these plaintiffs and five Justices have inadvertently opened a loop hole for every religious extremist in this country to use a for profit business to raise funds to further their goals in the same way they use religious protections to shield a church from federal intervention. Westboro Baptist Church, Inc. That is a scary thought.

Wescli the Wonderful wrote: I know you were prodding me. Cool. I was being sarcastic.

I wouldnt call it 'prodding', as you and I have much love for each other, I enjoy the conversation...

Many times when we (people) are talking, the 'waffling' (as someone said to me in a PM) is due to the lines being so thin, not to mention perceptual, lol, that it seems we step back and forth on them in a dance, lol...

I was more just conversing, and by engaging you challenging myself...

Mostly I have a hard time seeing the justification of one person being in conflict with their own teachings and calling out someone else for their perceived fallacy.

I think this is a big deal for so many who join, then leave, as they define things 'one way', and that would be 'their way' and that because someone isnt on the same page, that someone must be 'wrong', lol...

Not so...

If this is me you are talking about, please, lets start another thread, and discuss this, this one sounds good too... lol...

I am not in conflict with my own teachings... TOTJO teachings are not my own, but, the do coincide with my own, and I have no issue with the two working together...

Wescli wrote: I completely agree. As a Jedi, I hold all life to be sacred. And as I posted the other day…

“Just because you don't like something doesn't mean nobody else will, and just because you can't see something, doesn't mean nobody else can.”
― Terry Masters

I recognize that not everyone shares my views; they do not hold life to be sacred. They have a desire to kill babies and to do so with a clean conscience they will call it something else. That is there prerogative no matter how much I dislike it. But demanding that the government force people to support you in your crusade of murder… that is unreasonable.

And that is just how I feel about it.

Wescli wrote: I recognize that not everyone shares my views; they do not hold life to be sacred. They have a desire to kill babies, and to do so with a clean conscience they will call it something else. That is there prerogative no matter how much I dislike it. But demanding that the government force people to support you in your crusade of murder… that is unreasonable.

And that is just how I feel about it.

In the death penalty thread, to be for the death penalty is being compared to not holding life sacred...

I dont agree with that....

It can become institutionalized, I will give that point, but I dont think that is the point in the death penalty thread, or, maybe it is, lol...

But, it is ok to hunt... lol...

Its why we send a priest to the condemned person... It is a sacred event...

I dont kill things either, Wes, but, I have, and I always feel remorse that it must be done, but I feel that it must, for whatever the reason... I take spiders outside, open the door to let flys outside, spray my body with chemical deterrents for keeping mosquitoes away and the candles too, lol...

Not the point of this thread, but since we are talking about death, thought I would throught that in, lol....

I buy things every day that are made by slaves. So does everyone else. That does not mean we support the way it was made or the conditions the people work under. It means we want the product. So I guess we are all hypocrites?

To use your own words against you.. lol, sorry....

Wescli wrote: Every day we have choices to make. We can do what is easy or convenient, or we can chose to do what is right.

Remember, I am just talking...

If I am making you mad, let me know, I can frustrate people pretty easy...

It goes with my attitude, and who I am, and why trolls seldom bother me, and why I seem to have a lot of patience...

Like I said, those are the fine lines being drawn.

A lot of people have no issue using pesticides to wipe out thousands of lives because they don’t feel those lives are important. Rather it is a single celled organism which does not have a brain (as we consider one) or the Sperm Whale which has the largest brain on Earth; they are both life forms and are in turn, alive.

To me it seems pointless to argue over whether it is a baby, can survive on its own or has brain function. It is alive. Each cell is living.

I don’t think that I am “coming” at any one… at least I do not mean it to sound that way. That’s why I used emoticons!

And as much as it may bother people or they think I’m wrong, I see killing for convenience to be murder. The only things that justify killing is putting dinner on the table or defending yourself or your loved ones from being killed. That’s pretty much it.

As you were saying about your foot being alive… I agree that it is not a self-sustaining life form, capable of independent life outside or away from what keeps it alive. That’s why I said that we would not exist in space. Because technically, we would not either if taken from what keeps us alive. None of it is the same level of evolution or the same degree of complexity. But it is still life… that’s all I’m saying. And all life is sacred.

Senan wrote: While contraception, life, and abortion are part of this specific case, it is not what is important about the ruling. What is important is that this is the first time in the history of the United States Supreme Court that they have ruled that for profit businesses can hold religious views under federal law.

Exactly what I was getting at, here . I think we got into the life aspect because there's so much controversy over the 'why' of the situation. Not entirely sure, though. Things get 'hairy' when the conversation goes into such detail. :laugh:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
Those are the fine lines being drawn. What we are willing to kill for our own purposes. I was setting on the porch last night carving wood. And being eaten alive by mosquitoes. Rather than try and swat each one of them, no matter how annoying they are, I just went inside. I wouldn't mind burning the candles that make them go away, but I didn't have any. But I do consider all life to be sacred so I did not just decide they were and inconvenience and try to kill them.

Every day we have choices to make. We can do what is easy or convenient, or we can chose to do what is right.

I see that as respectable, although perhaps....extreme? For a lack of a better word.

I too consider all life to be sacred, however this does not mean that if an animal or insect is attacking me, that I will give it the opportunity to do so. Yes, I view mosquitoes manner of feeding as an attack on my person, as they pierce my flesh and draw blood in the manner they feed. Do I recognize that this is how this animal evolved and now obtains sustenance, of course! Does that mean I have to tolerate it? Not at all.

I also eat meat, although I would rather not kill animals for sustenance. I recognize that for me to eat meat, an animal's life must be taken, which is why I would strongly prefer to acquire meat through hunting. I do not view factory farming of animals to be an ethical practice, and therefore eat meat on a very rare basis and only as a supplement to a diet focused mainly on vegetarian sources.

As far as it concerns the main argument at hand, I do agree with you that life begins at conception, as the mass of cells that slowly mutate into a human being are at the core of where human life originates from, at least in this regard. To eradicate this early form of human life, is to remove any chance for the human person to continue to develop and progress along the natural life cycle that our species follows.

Wescli Wardest wrote: I don’t think that I am “coming” at any one… at least I do not mean it to sound that way. That’s why I used emoticons!

lol, no you are not...

I just meant that those folks who stand on a street corner, screaming their words of protest would have better luck having civil conversations...

It wasnt a reflection of this conversation in any way...

I forget to use emoticons sometimes, :lol:....

but, you know me well enough to know that I am laughing cause I [strike]am[/strike], er, LIKE an idiot!!

To me it seems pointless to argue over whether it is a baby, can survive on its own or has brain function. It is alive. Each cell is living.

Is it? Pointless?

Ok, I'll stop then...

Jestor wrote:

Wescli the Wonderful wrote: I know you were prodding me. Cool. I was being sarcastic.

I wouldnt call it 'prodding', as you and I have much love for each other, I enjoy the conversation...
I was more just conversing, and by engaging you challenging myself...

Maybe prodding is the best word? When I say it I mean that you are kind of poking at me to talk more, or egging me on in a more friendly manner than some would be considered if they were actually egging the other person on… if that makes sense.

Mostly I have a hard time seeing the justification of one person being in conflict with their own teachings and calling out someone else for their perceived fallacy.

I am not in conflict with my own teachings... TOTJO teachings are not my own, but, the do coincide with my own, and I have no issue with the two working together...

I was referring to the people in the news article that claim to be Christians yet clearly demonstrate that they are not practicing what they teach.

I buy things every day that are made by slaves. So does everyone else. That does not mean we support the way it was made or the conditions the people work under. It means we want the product. So I guess we are all hypocrites?

To use your own words against you.. lol, sorry....

Wescli wrote: Every day we have choices to make. We can do what is easy or convenient, or we can chose to do what is right.

Remember, I am just talking...

If I am making you mad, let me know, I can frustrate people pretty easy...

It goes with my attitude, and who I am, and why trolls seldom bother me, and why I seem to have a lot of patience...

You’re not making me mad at all.

I am having a hard time seeing where you are using my own words against me though… But that’s okay.