What self defense form is quickest to practical aplication? DO NOT ANSWER WITHOUT READING FULL POST!

I agree about Combatives from the US army. I took 10 years of tae kwon do when I was younger, and while it was great discipline and worked against others using it, the downfall in karate, tae kwon do, kung fu, etc is they teach you very little about ground combat. The simple fact is, 90% of all fights end up on the ground, and if all you know is strikes such as kicks and punches, you WILL loose once that fight goes to the ground. I would find something that teaches both strikes and holds/grapples/ground fighting.

I'm a fan of muai thai, but it does take time to learn and become proficient in so it might not be good for a beginner. Ju Jitsu is another good martial art. Tae Kwon Do is heavily focused on competition fighting, meaning most schools teach you how to fight and win in tournaments, they teach no strikes to the face, no pressure points (LEARN pressure points they are key in a lot of fights), no weak points of the body to strike that will cripple your opponent. Aikido is usefull, but also dont ignore the relatively unknown Hopkido. It focues on joint locks and strikes, both long and short range fighting.

Hi Karr, glad your lessons are going well. I just thought I'd pop a few thoughts in.

I started out training in martial arts in about 1999 (Wado Ryu Karate do) and would say to you that whatever you train in, just train intelligently and frequently. It's what you put into the style that you choose to train in that gives you the benefits, the fitness, stamina, confidence, posture, poise and awareness etc. It should help you to not stand out as a 'victim' which seems to be a big factor for a lot of people (it seems that way in England anyway), it'll teach you to walk like a tiger! Oh and be wary of people who say 'My art is better than your art!'.

And if your flatmate is a blackbelt in judo, take him up on his offer of lessons, it's one of the most underrated yet effective martial arts that you can study. Any crosstraining that you can do should be beneficial if done effectively.

Oh, and kudos to the jedi who posted that kata cannot teach you enough in the beginning (or words to that effect), I meet two many martial artists who say 'kata doesn't teach you anything', I believe personally that it can teach a helluva lot more than most people believe.

With this and another two post down there, I am noticeing a lot of people in the jedi community have a fondness for Aikido.

But to be honest, I consider it a quite difficult martial art to master.Definitly not ideal for someone who is looking for quick self-defence results.

It takes an undisclosed amount of YEARS to be really proficent at it. Relies heavily on how well are your kinetic intelligence and innate fighting skills.

As someone else said early in this post, there DO exists specific academies for self-defence that borrows the simpliest technics from many martial arts.

Box is also a good thing to try, again, for its simple effictiveness for street-fighting. Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and WTF Tae Kwon Do are heavily oriented toward competition and chances are high they might not work well in unsanctioned (street) combat.

Brazilian Jujitsu has been shown to work well against a single opponent but for more than one opponents, even two, it losses most of its efectiveness because going to the ground with one of the opponents while the other is on foot it's the worst thing can happen to you.

Many schools of karate teach preasure/vital points which are your best choice against a bigger, stronger enemy. Aikido also has Atemi, which is the same, striking to the vital points, but normaly it's only teached after you've attained serious ranks.

Judo would be also and excellent choice in your case. But it's a tough one martial art to train.

The point about Kata - if its been good enough for the inventors of martial arts for hundreds (if not over a thousand) years then its sure good enough and useful enough for me.

Once again an old point but the problem with martial arts or boxing etc is there is a simple fact that what suits one person may not suit another - keep in mind that the original sources of each exponent were different - ie different nationalities and like it or not - there are physiological differences between nationalities -

another form no one mentions too often and is perhaps overlooked/under rated is something greek style wrestling - not necessarily a martial art but useful.

The point about 'walking like a tiger' is very very true - along with being aware of your surroundings - even something a simple as wearing a flashy watch or using your mobile phone whilst walking down the street can make you a target - you could call this being street wise. I live in a reasonably rough town (worse during the summer months when the tourists arrive) and as someone who is short, skinny and walks with a stick - I guess im often seen as a target - however - whilst ive been aware of being followed or eyed over a number of times, a quick change of hand position and stance has always worked as a deterrent - if you appear to be able to handle yourself - your unlikely to be bothered - its like the way some animals puff themselves up to look bigger. But whilst seemingly easy and obvious now - if you feel under threat - look ahead and around you - look for safe zones and escape routes or even refuge - just walk into a store for example - your unlikely to be mugged in a store - most if not all robbers etc are essentially cowards.

Im all for anyone and everyone investing time etc into learning (properly) a martial art - but your onto a loser (in more ways than one) if you think there is any quick fix - and remember a little knowledge can be dangerous - keep in mind that there is nothing to stop any mugger/rapist etc also learning martial arts - always assume the opponent is 'better' than you (and armed) - diffusion of the situation is better than serious injury or death - if all they want is your phone then let them have the damned phone or whatever - principals and pride (or a few quid/bucks) are not worth getting hurt or killed over.

If you want 'self defence' ie dirty fighting - then get lessons in that - want to learn a martial art then do so - but expect to spend years before your remotely competent at your chosen art.

On to art vs art - 1sr - in all the arts ive tied - all the teachers have said one same thing to a common question - 'who would win in a fight between masters of x art and y art' the answer is always 'if they are masters - it would be a draw and no fighting would take place - theyd probably shake hands and talk together' - id also like to tell you of something I witnessed during my aikido days - two youngish women joined to try out aikido - both were brown belt taekwondo exponents and a little bullish about it - so at the end of the class - the Aikido master asked them to demonstrate on him at the same time - no hold barred and to try and actually hit him. Both failed miserably - he avoided or defeated every attempt using very little energy and finished up by putting both woman on their faces (at the same time) Forgot to add he was at least 40years there senior.

Now obviously im not saying one art is better than the other but the point im making is given time, training and dedication - anything is possible but dont rush it and dont ever assume any art is 'useless' against 2, 3, 4, 5,

A bad craftsman always blames his tools

Another point about kata (or forms or patterns whatever your chosen system calls them) is that if trained correctly it focuses the mind. When performing it you don't think about what the next move is, your body should do it automatically.(Remeber the line in Enter the Dragon where Bruce Lee says he doesn't punch, his fist punches all by itself?)

You should also take time to study the application of each move, martial artists who just go throught the motions aren't martial artists thay are merely 'Martial copyists' who probably believe that they are just doing kata to pass a grading. There are probably hundreds of applications for each move, it's up to you to discover them.

Light and peace, Matt.

You know Karr I could go on all day with self defense tips for you but really that's not the problem as I see it. You see self confidence NEVER comes from outside of us. It's something we find within. You can take all the classes you want and it will only mask the insecurity that lurks inside of you. There is at the end of the day no martial art that will ultimately give you what your looking for. The thing you need is not self defense, but self love. It's very easy to hurt someone Karr, you don't even need to be a martial artist to do that. The hardest thing in the world, absolutely the hardest, is to love ourselves just as we are, flaws and all. In side of you is love, but it's masked and covered over by the pain of your experiences. Learn to uncover the love you hold within yourself and all else will follow because only love, love of self, will free you and nothing can add that to you. This is something you have to find within yourself and no matter what your mind might tell you it's there. It's just waiting for you to look is all.

Merin Kyo Den,

Sorry to say, but you are way off base.

PTSD is not a symptom of low self esteem.

It is a psychological reaction, based from trauma.

Repetative trauma, like watching my Mother get beaten by her boyfriends and not being able to do anything about it, like years of being the target of bullys and loosing every fight I got pushed into.

I like who I am. And everyday I like who I am more. I'm a good person, striving to become better everyday.

The simple fact of the matter is that I'm unable to defend myself from physical attacks.

Quick, simple solution,.... Concealed gun permit and a 9mm. But thats not the route I want to take.

So while I understand your sentiment, its not accurate in this instance.
(and my therepists agrees.)

So thank you for your thoughts, but in this situation, its not helpfull.

I reread my response and realized just how harsh it comes accross. This was not my intention.

I only ment to assert that my issue is not based in self esteem.

I did have low self esteem for most of my life, and its only the last 10 years or so that I've actualy liked who I am. I'm a kind person, I'm very empathetic of others emotions. So much so that I've had to teach myself that the just because I can feel others emotions, doesn't mean that they are mine. I've had to learn to (to barrow a pagan term) create \"psychic shields\" so that I'm not overwhelmed by them.

I've learned to seperate me from others, and in that process I found myself. And I was supprised to find that I liked me. Still have plenty of problems to work on, but I've made a lot of progress, and most importanly,... I'm still working on improving.

The one obsticle that I can't seem to get over or work arround is this Fear.
The fear that starts when someone raises their voice in debate, the fear that comes when I smell alcohol on someones breath or in their sweat. The fear that I'm about to be beaten and left bleeding.

So I see to possible options here:

1. Let it happen. Actualy experience being left bloody on the ground,....again! , and then keep tellings myself that its not that bad, that I survived it, and could survive it again.

or

2. Learn self defense. Teach my body, and my mind that I am able to deal with violent situations if necessary in a safe and controlled environment.

As a Buddhist I can understand if you feel that option 1 is the approprate one.

As a Jedi I understand that in some instances, violence is necessary.
But is only appropriate as a last resort for the defence of myself or innocents.

I'm seeking self Confidence. Confidence comes from knowing that you are able to accomplish a thing. In this case the thing is self defence. To be able to accomplish a thing, you need to be taught,... or figure it out for yourself. I've failed to figure it out for myself, so I belive that its time to be taught. However the question remains, be taught what.....

Options avalable to me:
Tak Kwan Do
Jujitsu (one Gracie, one not)
Judo
9mm (not an option I care to choose)

Thats all thats offered where I live, at least till I can get back into school.

In closing, I'd like to appologize if I offended anyone. I am here to learn, not to attack those who try and teach me.

No sweat man. Sorry if I offended you. It's just that confidence isn't something you'll find outside even if it's a selling point for martial arts schools. The best thing you could study is boxing at a gym that'll let you spar. You can learn forms all day but if your afarid to get hit it'll all go out the window when the poop hits the fan.

Back to the point on kata

there is a line in Hagakure which sums up the point of kata quite nicely (for me at least)

Not got it to hand for direct quote (or page number etc but it goes along the lines of

'even when one is beheaded in combat - the body should still be able to perform one final intended action properly'

If you want to buy 'confidence' in a can - it is possible -is known as mace but not the right answer (likewise with any weapon) as Merin points out - youve gotta be able and willing to take a hit or two but fights are like xmas - its better to give than receive (if you have too)

When I started with martial arts I looked upon Kata with the uggh! Not Kata again! attitude…I like to spar, grapple and generally the get dirty part of Karate. But over time, you learn the Kata instinctively, when the moves are well ingrained then the real process of the technique of each move becomes the focus. Now when I practice my Kata I perform them first in the traditional way…speed, power, focus! lol. Then I practice them at a slower pace, concentrating on the precise movements and placement of my body. Sometimes I perform the Kata’s at an even slow smoother pace like Tai chi…almost in a meditative state.

I’ve got to say something here…when I spar the rigid rules of Kata fly out the window. That’s not to say that the techniques completely disappear either. When performing Kata there are specific moves to the sequence of each technique that include set up, delivery, follow through into transition for the next set and so on. When Sparring if you follow these movements you show your opponent exactly what you are going to do. So fluidity, speed and diversion (feinting) are in order. In a real fight do not even let your attacker have a clue you know anything about any fighting art, until it’s to late for them to know what clocked ‘em.

Of course we don’t want to get into the art of street fighting here. (It is contrary to our mission)

But…when everything else fails and a fight is imminent…

Surprise,surprise and again surprise, and do not show mercy until you have control, remember your attacker will not show you any.

Sounds bad and it is, humanity takes a back seat at this point. Unless you like the process of healing or worse.

The mind set to survive a real life encounter is – you did not start this, there are no rules, and expect no quarter from your adversary so too bad for them. Do everything you have to do to end this in your favor.

In a real fight there is no lose or give up, it cannot be allowed to enter the thought process, winning (surviving) the fight is all there is.

Yeah I know it sounds easy but it isn’t…there is as much and probably more to success rooted in the psychology aspect than the brawn. Mental preparation is not easy to develop.

As far as taking a few hits…yeah that’s me…I’m the idiot in the movies who stands up and says “lets go as***** show me what ya got !!! Luckily I’m a big enough fellow and can take a few before choosing an opening. Then watch out *grin* But of course that is just me.

As you can see there are many things to consider, and there are no easy fixes, aside from the firearm, but that brings with it its own host of problems as well.

I wish you well in this quest
And MTFBWY.

Karr, I'd like to recommend a couple of books both by a man named Geoff Thompson who overcame his fear of confrontation through becoming a bouncer (doorman I think is the American term), I'm not suggesting that you follow the same path as him but he certainly overcame his fears tenfold.

'Fear, the friend of exceptional people' and 'The elephant and the twig'.

Both good books that I'm sure will only benefit you, his autobiography 'Watch my Back' is a good read as well and gives good insight into how he overcame his personal fears.

He is a very learned martial artist who knows what works.

Light and peace, Matt.

I watched a show about extreme sprts and the minds behind the people that do them (the nearest I came to esdtreme sports is tombstoning and downhill mountain biking)

basically these guys n gals all seem to agree that there are types of fear and they learn to control the different types - there is fear that is instinctive ie standing on tedge of a cliff causes instinctive yet rational fear, there is irrational fear ie if mice, and extreme death fear - the sort of fear that causes one ot freeze and do nothing.

THere were others but the crux is these guys n girls learn to control and appreciate each type to their ultimate advantage

to the regular membership - this concept will no doubt be familiar

I belive it was general patten who said 'courage is fear - but holding on just that little while longer'

MTFBWY - A