The Knights Code

Wescli Wardest wrote: Personally, it would not kill me to have it as part of the doctrine. But is it really a part of the doctrine for all Jedi? It’d be cool if it was but the “sad”, and sad in my opinion, is that Jediism is open to interpretation and not all Jedi believe that the knight’s code is a requirement for being a Jedi, just a Knight at TotJO.

Should it not, at least, be included in the doctrine for all Jedi to keep in heart for the "knight within all of us"? Otherwise, isn't it being a wee bit exclusive? I can sort of see what you mean by the moderator example, but I really gotta say - that just isn't the same thing.

It's like we all have the ability to hammer a nail into a 2x4. Sure, we don't all become carpenters as a result of that, but it doesn't mean that we all couldn't see/appreciate or even otherwise apply to our lives the wisdom of "measure twice, cut once"

I mean, yeah, it isn't an Earth shatteringly dire thing. Maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill. It *is* included *somewhere* in our pages... it isn't hidden from members, only for a chosen few to see...

Wescli Wardest wrote: Thank you.

And I think that is one of the most difficult things Council has to do; decide what would best serve all members. Sure, that changes from time to time and we get a lot of back and forth. But what is best for all without ostracizing, alienating or belittling members and still creating a nurturing environment for all that attend is not an easy or always agreed upon thing.

And that is one reason we watch threads like this so closely.

Yes and i for one appreciate that the council tries to stay on top of these things , its not always easy to decide for everyone and it is on top of all the work already done , just count on us Dutchies to add to that load hehe

Wescli Wardest wrote: It’s not part of the doctrine. It’s a code that reminds Knights of their duties. It would be like putting the Guide to being a Moderator on the Doctrine Page. That is a set of rules, how to’s and guide line for moderators.

The Knights code is a great set of values for all people to aspire to in my opinion. And that is why it is available for all to see as bonus material on the doctrine section of the IP.

Personally, it would not kill me to have it as part of the doctrine. But is it really a part of the doctrine for all Jedi? It’d be cool if it was but the “sad”, and sad in my opinion, is that Jediism is open to interpretation and not all Jedi believe that the knight’s code is a requirement for being a Jedi, just a Knight at TotJO.

The same can be said of all of the rest of the doctrine. Open to interpretation, the context of circumstantially picking and choosing according to relevance, the debate of what is a requirement to follow in order to be a Jedi, etc etc. In the grand scheme of things, it's really no different.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether or not its in the doctrine. I don't feel I really need any of it at all in order to realize how I feel and what I believe, but it all does help to reinforce, clarify, acknowledge, and supplement what has developed in my paradigm. And that can be rather important. The Knights code is exactly that to me, just the same. I don't need it to be a Knight, and I can feel greatly inspired by it without worrying about being one at all. Either way, it is valuable and relevant to the overall point of any of it existing as it does, for anyone who likes to read and recite it.

Proteus wrote: Personally, it doesn't matter to me whether or not its in the doctrine. I don't feel I really need any of it at all in order to realize how I feel and what I believe, but it all does help to reinforce, clarify, acknowledge, and supplement what has developed in my paradigm. And that can be rather important.

The Knights code is exactly that to me, just the same. I don't need it to be a Knight, and I can feel greatly inspired by it without worrying about being one at all. Either way, it is valuable and relevant to the overall point of any of it existing as it does, for anyone who likes to read and recite it.

Precisely... aiming to be a knight or not, it serves to inspire. Why else would anyone *like* to read and recite such, whether knightly aimed or not? Perhaps to one degree or another, in our heart of hearts, we all *are* aimed so. But even if not so much, it's like another rung on the ladder for the soul. It inspires us to aspire, again, whether aiming for organizationally appointed knighthood, or just knight at heart. It's uplifting. It's encouraging. It's beneficial for anyone's heart to know of, yes?

Perhaps if included in the doctrine, then at the end - maybe like, "and for those aiming for knighthhod, the knight's code;... "

Ironically how quite a number of us Knight's and even others who look to the Knight's code as Doctrine, and yet it isn't and doesn't need to be...

I have to remind myself that that not everyone here who identifies as being a Jedi, identifies with Knighthood. That's a core reason as to why Jedism is so approachable, is its flexibility.

As important as the Knight's code is to some of us, would adding it to the Doctrine take away from the flexibility perhaps making it feel more rigid?

Perhaps adding it as a "noteworthy mention" but still keeping it to the side is more desirable? Just thoughts...

As any doctrine expands, it seems only natural that some will identify with some aspects of it more than others.

The decision before the Temple seems clear... does it want to retain its relatively small doctrine, and ask all members to agree with and embody it all? Or to grow its doctrine and be happy that many won't agree with aspects of it?

For me... I'd say the latter is already the case. Many already dispute the "Jedi Believe" section, others feel the Creed is out of place, we even offer two flavours of the Code (surely one of the most fundamental aspects of all) meaning the majority will reject something or other. And so adding the Knight's Code to the core doctrine wouldn't have quite such an impact as some are imagining here, so long as when it's introduced it's made clear to people that they can still be Jedi "by TOTJO standards" even if they disagree with aspects of the doctrine.

Zenchi wrote: Perhaps adding it as a "noteworthy mention" but still keeping it to the side is more desirable?

Exactly what I meant - I don't mean for it to be forced down anyone's throat, but I also would abhor the thought of exclusivism, like one would need to gravitate towards some "clique" in order to be thus any further inspired.

Like I mentioned before, perhaps as an aside to the doctrine, an added "bonus" if you like, at the end of the list, something along the lines of, "And for those who would further and be striven towards knighthood, the knight's code, as follows;... "

Only just to have it *out there*, not just tucked away as some "Easter egg" added plus to an IP lesson, but available to be seen and to be considered *BY ALL*, without being required to own it as theirs... available to be seen, pondered, inspired by, by *any* Jedi of *any* level/status/rank, *anywhere*.

Because as it's been stated in this thread already more than once, it inspires, or even at least has potential to inspire. It is something people genuinely *like* to read, recite, recount - even to one's own self.

And those inspired are impelled to aspire. Some seeds grow beneficial things. Even some, should not be unsewn

tzb wrote: Many already dispute the "Jedi Believe" section, others feel the Creed is out of place, we even offer two flavours of the Code (surely one of the most fundamental aspects of all) meaning the majority will reject something or other.

I really don't know if this makes me seem bad, how bad, or whatever... and I must confess I'm losing any give-a-s##t about whether I do or not... but I really gotta say, I've been getting not only tired, but I dare say quite exhausted and fatigued, about how the masses want us to please each and every one of them. If people don't want to adhere to our "flavour" of Jediism, then they can move on - and that's not a bad thing to say, because there are certainly a multitude of others out there. We aren't the first "real-life Jedi", and I see nothing to indicate that we'd be the last. To each, their own, and there's nothing bad about that. We can't please everyone - nor should we nor anyone have to, nor even bother to try, quite frankly.

As a thought…
It could be argued that if one was pursuing the IP with the intent of becoming a Knight, then then they would find the Knights code there. Where it is, and where it is a bonus lesson.

Don’t get me wrong. I understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from. I believe that all Jedi should at least have some desire to aspire to Knighthood. The Knight’s code has been an inspiration to me for years.

But as I see it, the knight’s code is not doctrine. It is a very pretty and inspirational code that can be extracted from our doctrine. You don’t have to agree with me, but does that make any sense?

I think the Knight’s coed should be represented as a piece for people to see and gain inspiration from. That’s why it’s on my profile page. And our doctrine is not perfect, sure. We tweek it and change things in it from time to time. We’ve been looking at the creed for a while now.

Funny thing, and you might find it hard to believe, but there are those that argue the knights code needs to go away. :ohmy: