Looking for initiate study partners!

I think devils advocate is only as useful a tool if you are sincere about it.

I dont play devils advocate, if I am it is because I am sincerely in opposition to the subject matter.

I know many who attempt it without sincerity and it makes for a poor tool.

Khaos wrote: I think devils advocate is only as useful a tool if you are sincere about it.

I dont play devils advocate, if I am it is because I am sincerely in opposition to the subject matter.

I know many who attempt it without sincerity and it makes for a poor tool.

I would have a hard time believing that only exploring one view would give someone a more well-rounded idea of the subject matter. If that is what you are suggesting by claiming to be the Devil’s Advocate? I could have misunderstood your meaning though.

I agree that many are not sincer about what they do. Nor do they attempt to accomplish things by committing themselves 100%. This often leads to poor results or negative results. But that does not make it a failure in my eyes… it creates an opportunity to learn from for future reference.

I don’t believe that any of us ever commit 100% of ourselves to everything we do. And I doubt we will ever be able to do that either. So as I see it, we will always have opportunities created by ourselves to learn from.

PS, after rereading what you wrote a couple times I eralize that my first interprtation of what you said was incorrect. My appologies.

Well, I'm never being contrarian just for its own sake. I can be reluctant to agree and in many of those cases I still assume a hypothetical, and I can disagree whenever I find my existing models in conflict with the ones suggested although I will retract my objections when the challenge has been answered and since I'm no expert on anything yet that doesn't take much either.

Wescli, thank you for your reply (post #156880). I shall refrain from pushing myself onto anyone and leave everyone's studies to themselves as I have before. Thus my policy will be this:

If you (IP student, referred to as you henceforth) are unsure as to the strength or sufficiency of your reply on a piece from the IP, specifically if you feel like it is somewhat one-sided, feel free to ask me to review it privately or publicly before or after you submit it. I could also be available to discuss some of the material and related topics or debate although if you wish that, please ask me about it in advance, since many things I haven't memorized and may not be sufficiently prepared for. Also, please keep in mind that I am neither in a position nor willing to accurately represent anyone's opinion other than my own in that format and a balanced result will not always be possible, especially not when my opinion has a large overlap with yours. Since my positions are often contrary to many of the teachers' here and maybe to some doctrinal, please do not approach me if you are not sure there is a benefit to be gained. If you are unsure, please consult with a TOTJO training master before you decide.

Senan, thank you for your very kind words. I would likely not be quite who I am without this place either.

I think Gisteron and Khaos should stay out of it.

Gisteron wrote: Well, I'm never being contrarian just for its own sake.

Based on our brief exchanges, I find this questionable. I believe that you may not think you are being contrarian, but that doesn't change the fact that you are often blunt and deliberately adversarial. Some people consider this approach rude (even disrespectful) and not everyone benefits from the type of communication or style of debate that you prefer to employ.

Arcade wrote:

Gisteron wrote: Well, I'm never being contrarian just for its own sake.

Based on our brief exchanges, I find this questionable. I believe that you may not think you are being contrarian, but that doesn't change the fact that you are often blunt and deliberately adversarial. Some people consider this approach rude (even disrespectful) and not everyone benefits from the type of communication or style of debate that you prefer to employ.

Hes not denying hes contrarian, just that he is being contrarian for its own sake.

Not everyone benefits from any style of communication, but they are varied just like personalities.

Would you rather he pretend to be other than who and what he is?

It may comfort others, but at what cost to him?

Who does it really help?

Alan wrote: I think Gisteron and Khaos should stay out of it.

I didnt ask to be in it

Still, ouch. :pinch:

I do not know why Gisteron should be refused though, or on what grounds.

Should we have our own water fountains and bathrooms too?

Khaos wrote:

Alan wrote: I think Gisteron and Khaos should stay out of it.

I didnt ask to be in it

Still, ouch. :pinch:

I do not know why Gisteron should be refused though, or on what grounds.

Should we have our own water fountains and bathrooms too?

I think there is a concern that the more direct approach you are both associated with might scare off people just starting out.

But im happy to keep sharing the water fountains

I would be genuinely interested in knowing Gisteron's take on the material in the IP, including the contrast in his views, as well as what he, in fact, does find valuable among studying it. Granted that we all know it is not worth much to agree with everything in any source, I'm curious to see how much of the material he would find his own "bond" with in the light of learning something new for himself. It might be a particularly valuable observation for other members here to witness what he might discover. In any case, I'm sure there are many around here who might find themselves asking the question: "How much can Gisteron bring himself to truly empty his cup?"

Well because of the "not everyone" bit, I didn't call them children to me to preach any sermons to them. I specifically designed my policy such that only those would ask who either know what they are doing or have the approval of one or all the TOTJO training masters whose opinion they value. I'm not here to "poison your youth" or anything. That is part of the reason why I don't go out to discuss the IP with newcomers who may or may not be secure about even being here nor do I post my latest take on it in public.

I did have a journal once and I did complete the IP back in that day. I was however somewhat different from who I am today, so looking over my backups I'm not sure I agree with all of the personal evaluations I made. It is astonishing, looking back, how much change one could see in some cases. I think if I was a training master I would have at least an optional lesson toward the end where the apprentice would scan over her early journal entries and reflect on what has changed since then.