Forum Access Changes

I have to agree with Bren, and I think this has been pretty calm.
I have had Skype discussions with guests who feel they won't be listened to and one who spoke to someone here and was in her opinion dismissed because she is a guest and not a member.
I understand things can change and hope we are kept in the loop.
But yeah bit dismissive
We are offering options and opinions which aren't just bitching.

Akkarin wrote:
Right but how do we know unless we're told? If no one posts or leaves "thanks" then we simply don't know what people are thinking. And if you're posting on their behalf tell us, because how do we distinguish between something that is only your view and something that is the view of lots of people?

We aren't psychic, if someone thinks their voice doesn't count so decides not to have a voice then their voice definitely won't count. We aren't inhuman and lacking compassion, but we aren't psychic either, we only know what we're told.

Only my view? I am telling you, that's how you distinguish. I spent the better part of my day today fielding discussions both here and off campus over this.

Perhaps you should be asking why people feel more comfortable taking their concerns to an apprentice.

I have said the same thing. And I always encourage people to share what they have to say. But, I cant force anyone to speak up if they dont feel they can.

Someone posts links, says "other communities allow it", we don't allow? Complaints about us...

Also...This was my complaint. (I freely admit it) The problem I have here is.....Jestors post, and Akkarins post sounds dangerously close to a lack of care about member complaints. Shouldn't member/guest complaints be valued and heard? At the long and the short of it....Members & Guests are the ones that keep's this community alive. If we all left today because we felt our complaints were not valued....where would TotJO be? I must admit the above quoted bristles me some because my complaint has been an ongoing "Problem" for a full year....and it keeps getting brought up. (And not by me but those on council) If the council dosn't care about my complaint then fine. I am just a "Guest" after all..... But let a dead horse lay. Please and thank you?

P.S. I realize the mentioning of the above quote was to compound on the fact that people complain...but I do not feel it has helped anyones case. Yes...people do complain...As a Knight and a council member...your job is to hear those complaints and do something about it. As Khaos has pointed out...many of us have in fact played on both sides of the fence...and those of us who are active members of the community are here offering out experiance and advice to help. If they are to be dismissed because we are "One of them Guests" then I may have to retreat back to my hole again..... :dry: I am trying very hard to be respectful...but when my complaints are blatantly put out as "People Bitching" Then yea...I feel I must speak up a little....Im sorry.

[quote="Brenna" post=165215

Perhaps you should be asking why people feel more comfortable taking their concerns to an apprentice.[/quote]



You know as well as I do, that if people dont talk to us, they feel like they are 'bothering us'... Or they dont know us becasue we only have so many hours in the day to be online, and conduct the business...

It happens as any organization grows, there is only so much time for us to meet people and conduct the business...

I appreciate what you are doing, as does the rest of us that cant quite seem to be able to talk as much...

You, Elizabeth, and Edan, are my eyes and ears...

elizabeth wrote: We are offering options and opinions which aren't just bitching.

Yes, I found this a little telling too. Akkarin, earlier in the thread you said that those complaining should offer suggestions. But a number of us already had and proceeded to point that out.

Which, from the outside, looks as though you had either not actually read our posts, or werent interested in our suggestions.

So at what point does our reasonable objections become bitching? When they become tiresome to hear?



Edit - Point taken Master Jestor.

Kitsu Tails wrote: As Khaos has pointed out...many of us have in fact played on both sides of the fence...and those of us who are active members of the community are here offering out experiance and advice to help. If they are to be dismissed because we are "One of them Guests" then I may have to retreat back to my hole again..... :dry: I am trying very hard to be respectful...but when my complaints are blatantly put out as "People Bitching" Then yea...I feel I must speak up a little....Im sorry.

My apologies...

I was not bringing it up to 'beat the dead horse'....

You are not the only one to post links, although you are the only one active...

Let me say, I talk funny, ever noticed?

Its in my homey "woulda"s and lots of 'lol's, etc...

I used the word "bitching"...

My wife/kids/bosses/etc "bitches" at me... Is it always "bitching"? No... Mostly when I am resistant to hear it, or it feels like an onslaught where I cannot even take a breath, or in this case, keep up with the posting...

Is she usually right? Yes, just ask her, lol, but that doesnt stop me from referring to that in that manner...

Again, my apologies, your concerns are valid...

Jestor is fine Brenna...

elizabeth wrote: I have to agree with Bren, and I think this has been pretty calm.
I have had Skype discussions with guests who feel they won't be listened to and one who spoke to someone here and was in her opinion dismissed because she is a guest and not a member.
I understand things can change and hope we are kept in the loop.
But yeah bit dismissive
We are offering options and opinions which aren't just bitching.

In the time between when a decision is made and then discussed and changed people who are not a part of the discussion will be left in a quasi-limbo state of unsureness, because they don't know what's happening. I can understand how that makes someone feel: powerless, ignored...

But discussion and decision making takes time. People need patience to see how things will ultimately end up.

Kitsu Tails wrote: Yes...people do complain...As a Knight and a council member...your job is to hear those complaints and do something about it.

Well I'm not explicitly aware of what your complaint is, but that's not what I'm addressing here:

It is our job to listen and I have stated that we are listening, but at the same time if we are complaining about the way people are responding then perhaps it is also their job to wonder what it is about this process that makes us complain?

I doubt anyone on the Council will find any of their posting habits change because of this, I am pretty much unphased by all of the reasons behind why we have been approached for something to change. I don't get caught up in the heated discussions so why should I bother trying to sort them out? Because as a Knight and a Jedi here at the Temple I want to see our organisation prosper as best it can.

The Council and the Knights were approached by others asking for something to be done, THAT is why we are doing this, and as we are again now approached by others we will again do something about it.

Brenna wrote: Perhaps you should be asking why people feel more comfortable taking their concerns to an apprentice.

I can only think that it might be because of my rank bar, but what exactly is it that might make someone hesitant to talk to me (or another senior member)? Because they are worried about things that *might* happen? Well I am actually a very approachable person, I admit I'm not as extroverted as some, but I don't ever just ignore people. How much of their worries are in their head?

This is almost inevitable in any organisation, I am (at least I like to think I am ) very approachable and reasonable and kind, but because of the position of "Councillor" it naturally puts me in a perceived, greater hierarchical position than someone who is not. Given that, how many people challenge the decisions of their "superiors" at work because of fear of potential repercussion? I know I definitely hesitated to when I was working...

What I'm saying is that there is probably going to forever be some level of unease because I hold a "higher" office than someone else, and I'm very sad that that is the way we humans tend to operate. But again if it is something you think we are failing in then ok NOW we know about it because you've told us. Perhaps we can do something to change it?

The council regularly receives notices of complaints from one source or another. They discuss these notices while also interacting within threads that are referenced, to the best of their ability, to mediate the discussions. They can only do so much among a crowd of very diverse people, all with different positions, thoughts, and wishes. They listen very considerably to what people on every level has to say and they care very much for each and every one of you here. They take time out of their real lives without any pay to do so because of how much they believe in all of you, your potential, and your purpose.

While there has been constructive criticism, there has also been outright griping as well, with people reading into the change far more than is necessary. I personally expected this. It happens. The most important points have been given and heard clearly. Some of them were already addressed in the knights forum before being brought up.

Akkarin simply asked if this thread could slow down a bit so that our responses to the matter can keep up. The more and faster people flood a thread, the more stressful and confusing it gets, making it more difficult for the council to listen. I hope you all understand this and take it into consideration.

And perhaps next time you'll allow everyone to have a say and involve everyone in the loop before jumping into the frying pan and "see how it goes." No offense, but what did you expect, lol...

Akkarin wrote: I can only think that it might be because of my rank bar, but what exactly is it that might make someone hesitant to talk to me (or another senior member)? Because they are worried about things that *might* happen? Well I am actually a very approachable person, I admit I'm not as extroverted as some, but I don't ever just ignore people. How much of their worries are in their head?

This is almost inevitable in any organisation, I am (at least I like to think I am ) very approachable and reasonable and kind, but because of the position of "Councillor" it naturally puts me in a perceived, greater hierarchical position than someone who is not. Given that, how many people challenge the decisions of their "superiors" at work because of fear of potential repercussion? I know I definitely hesitated to when I was working...

I am one of those "Guests" that are hesitant, fearful, and timid about voicing my concerns and complaints. This is not because of your rank bar. But because of how I have been treated in the past, how others have been treated and thus 'vented' to me as an outside observer, and how I have viewed actions from "Ghost" status.

It has absolutely nothing to do with your rank bar.