(16:05:14) Alexandre_Orion: the sermon is going to be on the current theme and on the one that I thought it was
(16:05:23) Alexandre_Orion: but there isn't really a sermon
(16:05:27) Temple Bot: Proteus has joined the chat.
(16:05:33) Alexandre_Orion: it is going to be more of a "topic"
(16:05:40) Alexandre_Orion: Hi, GE
(16:05:45) Edan: Hi Ethan
(16:05:50) Proteus: how am i still awake 8o
(16:05:52) Rosalyn_J: Hiiiiiiiiiii Proteus
(16:06:00) Edan: Don't ask me, I'm wondering the same thing
(16:06:01) Rosalyn_J: its because you are awesome
(16:06:07) CryojenX: Howdy Proteus!
(16:06:09) Alexandre_Orion: and I'm going to ask anyone who would like to to contribute/participate
(16:06:18) Alexandre_Orion: You see
(16:06:41) Alexandre_Orion: I thought this month's theme was "Iniquity, yet Justice"
(16:07:06) Alexandre_Orion: and then GE pointed out to me that it is "Fickleness, yet Discipline"
(16:07:19) Proteus: it could be.
(16:07:32) Alexandre_Orion: and then Ros told me that indeed, it was "Iniquity, yet Justice"
(16:07:33) Alexandre_Orion: so
(16:07:47) Proteus makes mistakes :P
(16:07:51) CryojenX: The theme is apparently very fickle
(16:08:03) Alexandre_Orion: I've just said "screw it" and we're going to talk about the "yet"
(16:08:18) CryojenX: haha
(16:08:27) Rosalyn_J: We are both right
(16:08:28) Alexandre_Orion: in that way, we're treating ALL of our themes
(16:08:32) Alexandre_Orion: becaus
(16:08:33) CryojenX: would the plural be yeti?
(16:08:39) Alexandre_Orion: because even
(16:08:44) Rosalyn_J: LOL
(16:08:50) Alexandre_Orion: :?
(16:09:21) Alexandre_Orion: We'll notice that in any of the dichotomous relationships we focus our themes on ...
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(16:09:34) Alexandre_Orion: there is a "yet"
(16:09:36) Alexandre_Orion: now
(16:09:46) Alexandre_Orion: what does that "yet" mean to us ?
(16:10:18) Proteus: the dance
(16:10:28) Alexandre_Orion: To me, it implies that we are going to have both characteristics at the same time ..
(16:10:32) Alexandre_Orion: right, GE :)
(16:10:36) CryojenX: I feel like the yet, is the Force itself.
(16:10:36) Alexandre_Orion: a dance
(16:10:42) Alexandre_Orion: a balance
(16:10:50) Rosalyn_J: The middle way
(16:11:04) Alexandre_Orion: precisely ...
(16:11:13) Alexandre_Orion: Iniquity, for example
(16:11:26) Alexandre_Orion: gross immorality
(16:11:40) Alexandre_Orion: that is indeed an aspect of our characters
(16:11:58) Alexandre_Orion: most of the time, we are able to keep it in chech
(16:12:03) Alexandre_Orion: cheque ?
(16:12:11) Alexandre_Orion: (or something like that)
(16:12:13) Rosalyn_J: check
(16:12:22) Alexandre_Orion: thank you, Ros
(16:12:26) Rosalyn_J: :)
(16:12:53) Alexandre_Orion: and for as much as we are prone to slant the "ego" as a bad thing ...
(16:13:13) Rosalyn_J: Its funny though that our view of morality/immorality changes when we view someone else as opposed to ourselves
(16:13:21) Alexandre_Orion: ... it is that which "checks" our mischievous side
(16:13:53) Alexandre_Orion: of course, Ros ... because someone else's mischief doesn't get filtered through our OWN ego
(16:14:05) Alexandre_Orion: our own conscience
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(16:14:43) Alexandre_Orion: we'll notice that in the place of "yet" we do not say "instead of"
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(16:15:01) Alexandre_Orion: for both aspects of the dichotomy
(16:15:10) Edan: I prefer 'and' rather than 'yet'
(16:15:29) Rosalyn_J: curious
(16:15:40) Alexandre_Orion: it means pretty much the same thing, K-A
(16:16:01) Rosalyn_J: I'd like to know why
(16:16:05) Edan: Maybe, but they 'feel' different to me subtly
(16:16:07) Alexandre_Orion: it is just that since they are contraries, we oppose them against one another
(16:16:11) Alexandre_Orion: okay, Ros
(16:16:30) Alexandre_Orion: you've heard me babble on about "coicidentia oppositorum" before
(16:16:42) Alexandre_Orion: or "enantiodromia"
(16:16:47) Rosalyn_J: well
(16:16:52) Alexandre_Orion: :P
(16:17:02) Alexandre_Orion: first
(16:17:03) Rosalyn_J: I was hoping Edan could elaborate on the feeling different
(16:17:16) Alexandre_Orion: sure ... I can go on later
(16:17:18) Alexandre_Orion: ;)
(16:17:23) CryojenX: I feel that and just takes them both as they are. All at face value, there's no dynamic, the yet implies a tug of war, or the dance if you will. The dynamics that make life possible.
(16:17:38) Edan: I don't see them as contraries... I see them as contrasts. Iniquity is not the opposite of justice; justice occurs, but I feel the word is too broad in meaning, and too broad in application.
(16:18:05) Edan: Contrasts as in, they overlap... an action may seem iniquitous, but also just
(16:18:30) Alexandre_Orion: they are mutually arising
(16:19:00) Alexandre_Orion: if we do not have (a concept of) Iniquity, we do not need one for Justice either
(16:19:13) Proteus: ^^^
(16:19:20) CryojenX nods
(16:19:20) Alexandre_Orion: and as it were, we cannot "present" either one of them
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(16:19:35) Rosalyn_J: The concept changes depending on the conceptualizor
(16:19:45) Alexandre_Orion: that is, I can't "show you" neither my Iniquity nor my Justice
(16:20:11) Alexandre_Orion: we have symbols for both
(16:20:16) Alexandre_Orion: but not definitions
(16:21:08) Alexandre_Orion: that is, no definitions that englobe all possible concepts of the quality
(16:21:31) Alexandre_Orion: that they are mutually arising (like high/low)
(16:21:46) Alexandre_Orion: that is what is meant by "coincidentia oppositorum"
(16:22:08) Alexandre_Orion: K-A is right - they are not truly "opposites"
(16:22:30) Alexandre_Orion: for one extreme is a necessary condition for the existence of the other
(16:22:48) Alexandre_Orion: yet
(16:22:49) Rosalyn_J: If there is no definition of justice or iniquity or ficklness or discipline, how come so much is written about them
(16:22:50) Alexandre_Orion: :P
(16:23:09) CryojenX: Because not enough can ever be said to define them.
(16:23:17) Alexandre_Orion: there's that
(16:23:50) Alexandre_Orion: but like also Lao Tsu said : The tao that can be spoken is not the eteral tao ...
(16:23:52) Alexandre_Orion: but
(16:24:00) Alexandre_Orion: he said that
(16:24:15) Alexandre_Orion: and then went on for quite a while about it
(16:24:29) Rosalyn_J: right (irony)
(16:24:39) Alexandre_Orion: we can explore these notions
(16:24:51) Alexandre_Orion: but never really grasp them
(16:25:26) Alexandre_Orion: this has what has gotten us into quite a bit of existential angst
(16:25:33) CryojenX: Perhaps dictionaries should all come with definitions for such words that say simply "fill in the blank" ;)
(16:25:44) Alexandre_Orion: :?
(16:26:29) CryojenX sits down and zips her lip. O:-D
(16:26:34) Alexandre_Orion: there are aspects of being that defy definition
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(16:27:31) Alexandre_Orion: we cannot even come to a clear concept of them with the conscious mind
(16:27:36) Rosalyn_J: there is the possibility that in defining (naming) the tree, we cease to see it
(16:27:40) Rosalyn_J: experience it
(16:27:53) Alexandre_Orion: yes, but no also, Ros
(16:27:59) Alexandre_Orion: when we say "tree"
(16:28:18) Alexandre_Orion: you are going to picture a different sort of tree than Vicki may
(16:28:26) Alexandre_Orion: but "tree" is a sign
(16:28:32) Alexandre_Orion: it is not a symbol
(16:28:53) Rosalyn_J: huh?
(16:28:56) Alexandre_Orion: "tree" re-presents that notion -- which can be "presented"
(16:29:05) Alexandre_Orion: I can show you the tree
(16:29:16) Alexandre_Orion: but
(16:29:54) Alexandre_Orion: Iniquity, Justice, Fickleness, Discipline ... I can't "show" you what I'm talking about
(16:30:04) Alexandre_Orion: so
(16:30:14) Alexandre_Orion: the 'sign' - the word
(16:31:06) Alexandre_Orion: is going to have an even broader spectrum of 'imagined' significance than the "tree"
(16:31:17) Alexandre_Orion: do you see where I'm going with that ?
(16:31:41) Rosalyn_J: so Iniquity etc are abstract
(16:31:45) Alexandre_Orion: most of us will think about someone we consider immoral - or ourselves
(16:31:48) Rosalyn_J: where as tree is concrete
(16:31:55) Alexandre_Orion: yes
(16:32:05) Keladry: i think those concepts are relative that's why you cannot really define them easily
(16:32:19) Alexandre_Orion: relative to what, Keladry ?
(16:32:27) Keladry: to the individual
(16:32:42) Keladry: each person has a nebulous definition of their own for those concepts
(16:32:43) Alexandre_Orion: perhaps
(16:33:01) Alexandre_Orion: if the person is indeed an individual
(16:33:08) Alexandre_Orion: most of us are not
(16:33:18) Keladry: their own understanding of it one that is very difficult to share or describe in a different way
(16:33:25) Keladry: how so ?
(16:33:33) Alexandre_Orion: most of us belong to in-groups : nations, cultures, churches, other social groups
(16:33:51) Alexandre_Orion: in-groups need out-groups
(16:34:17) Alexandre_Orion: furthermore, we tend to consider these things according to what others think, say, do
(16:34:31) Keladry: sometimes, but not always
(16:34:36) Alexandre_Orion: and thus we divide up our experience of living
(16:34:49) Alexandre_Orion: if individual means un-divided
(16:35:08) Alexandre_Orion: then we stop qualifying as "individuals"
(16:35:16) Alexandre_Orion: our lives are fractured
(16:35:30) Alexandre_Orion: so,
(16:35:44) Alexandre_Orion: it isn't even the concept 'relative' to the person
(16:36:02) Alexandre_Orion: but 'relative' to the "piece" of the person that is in the forefront
(16:36:18) Alexandre_Orion: other "pieces" will have other relativities
(16:36:27) Keladry: idk i think each person even if they have guidelines from their community has a different understanding of concepts
(16:36:28) Alexandre_Orion: and the poor person ends up on Prozac
(16:36:38) CryojenX: amen
(16:37:13) Alexandre_Orion: anyway
(16:38:07) Alexandre_Orion: would anyone else like to say something ?
(16:38:28) Rosalyn_J: Um
(16:38:37) Rosalyn_J: I have a bit of a headache
(16:38:47) Alexandre_Orion: :?
(16:38:52) CryojenX: I'm reminded of a song...
(16:39:03) Alexandre_Orion: which one, Cryo ?
(16:39:10) Edan: I'm finding it too late for me to properly explain anything I'm thinking right now
(16:39:28) CryojenX: It's from a metal group, Dark Castle, and is called Grasping The Awe
(16:39:47) CryojenX: "Words whether they are vocalized
Into sounds or remain unspoken as thoughts
Can cast an almost hypnotic spell on you...
(16:40:07) CryojenX: ...You can easily lose yourself in them
And can become hypnotized into implicity
Believing, that when you attach a word to something...
(16:40:23) CryojenX: ...You know know what it is
The fact is you don't know
You have only covered up the mystery with a label
Everything, a bird, a tree, even a simple stone
And certainly a human being is ultimately unknowable...
(16:40:46) CryojenX: ...Becoming shallow, lifeless, deadened
To life unfolding around you, within
Grasping the awe inside, around you...
(16:41:02) CryojenX: ...When you stare at a flower or a bird let it be
Without imposing a word or label to it
A sense of awe and wonder arises within
A sense of the miraculous returns to your life
That was lost long ago...
(16:41:28) CryojenX: ...The quicker you attach words to things, people, or situations
The more shallow and lifeless your reality becomes
And the more deadened you become to the miracle
Of life that continuously unfolds within and around you...
(16:41:47) CryojenX: ...All we can perceive and experience is the surface
Layer of reality, less than the tip of the iceberg
Listen to silence [x2]
Words reduce reality to something the
Human mind can grasp, which isn't very much
(16:42:05) CryojenX: That's it
(16:42:49) Alexandre_Orion: That is a pretty good song for this topic, Cryo
(16:42:56) CryojenX: :)
(16:43:15) Rosalyn_J: Yeah that works
(16:43:26) Rosalyn_J: it answers my question "so what?"
(16:43:39) Keladry: that's really the total opposite of how I think about the world. I love to stare right into the heart of the mystery and try and solve it.
(16:43:45) Proteus: I find it interesting that every experience we will ever have, contains "yet"... and that "yet" can help to reveal the limitations of the spoken word when it comes to any "set in" ideals.
(16:43:45) Alexandre_Orion: These days ... and "these days" have been going on for about a thousand years ...
(16:44:03) Alexandre_Orion: we have engaged with the iconoclasm of Reason
(16:44:12) Alexandre_Orion: we want to "know"
(16:44:27) Alexandre_Orion: and we hold disdain for the mystery
(16:44:44) Alexandre_Orion: we have been trying to turn our symbols into signs
(16:45:01) Alexandre_Orion: we want Justice to be as cut and dry as the tree
(16:45:18) Alexandre_Orion: It isn't working
(16:45:40) Alexandre_Orion: yes, GE ...
(16:45:46) Alexandre_Orion: there is always a "yet"
(16:46:31) Alexandre_Orion: not just with the spoken word, but certainly also with images
(16:46:43) Proteus: yet presents us with the space in between everything we percieve, reminding us that it is not all there is.
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(16:47:19) Alexandre_Orion: and also that what we want (or think we want) also implies what we do not want
(16:47:34) Alexandre_Orion: they are mutually arising
(16:47:59) Alexandre_Orion: they are not two far apart ends of the same stick
(16:48:18) Alexandre_Orion: one extreme starts becoming the other
(16:48:30) Alexandre_Orion: thus : Iniquity, yet Justice
(16:48:56) Rosalyn_J: I can see how Justice would morph
(16:49:10) Rosalyn_J: the same for iniquity
(16:49:17) Alexandre_Orion: Haven't we all known ourselves and/or others to be so morally righteous we/they become distant and callous ?
(16:49:42) Alexandre_Orion: or even judgemental ?
(16:49:44) CryojenX: A continuum, or spectrum
(16:49:53) CryojenX: indeed
(16:49:58) Rosalyn_J: or even the most "vile" to be a bastion of justice
(16:50:10) Keladry: the need to be fluid not rigid
(16:50:10) Edan: I'm sorry, I need to go to bed. Enjoy the rest of the sermon. Thank you Alex
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(16:50:38) Rosalyn_J: but what about fickleness and discipline?
(16:50:43) Alexandre_Orion: 27
A good traveler has no fixed plans
and is not intent upon arriving.
A good artist lets his intuition
lead him wherever it wants.
A good scientist has freed himself of concepts
and keeps his mind open to what is. Thus the Master is available to all people
and doesn't reject anyone.
He is ready to use all situations
and doesn't waste anything.
This is called embodying the light. What is a good man but a bad man's teacher?
What is a bad man but a good man's job?
If you don't understand this, you will get lost,
however intelligent you are.
It is the great secret.
(16:51:09) Alexandre_Orion: that one, Fickleness, yet Discipline is easier
(16:51:40) Alexandre_Orion: there is nothing more Fickle than one who feels that their Discipline is so complete that they need no more of it
(16:52:05) Alexandre_Orion: nor a higher Discipline than to recognise our own Fickleness
(16:52:23) Alexandre_Orion: Discipline just means "learning"
(16:52:31) Alexandre_Orion: and we are never done with that
(16:54:58) Alexandre_Orion: 71
Not-knowing is true knowledge.
Presuming to know is a disease.
First realize that you are sick;
then you can move toward health. The Master is her own physician.
She has healed herself of all knowing.
Thus she is truly whole.
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(16:56:29) Alexandre_Orion: uh-oh
(16:56:41) CryojenX: Much to meditate on.
(16:56:42) Alexandre_Orion: where did everyone go ?
(16:56:47) Rosalyn_J: Yeah
(16:56:56) Rosalyn_J: I can't even
(16:57:02) Keladry: i'm thinking about it
(16:57:06) Rosalyn_J: I feel an "ok" bubbling up
(16:57:41) CryojenX: I was writing in my notebook a realization I had
(16:58:08) Alexandre_Orion: what was it, Cryo ?
(17:00:05) CryojenX: My motivations for becoming Jedi largely stemmed from "spiritual pride". I wanted to know the mysteries of the Force. But knowing it's mystery, would destroy its mystery, so perhaps it is best to simply know OF the Force, that it is, and let the mystery stay.
(17:00:50) CryojenX: Since truly knowing it is an impossible feat in the firt place.
(17:01:23) Proteus: but you do know it, very well... even yet that you never will.
(17:01:26) Alexandre_Orion: or, 'know' it AS a mystery
(17:01:38) Alexandre_Orion: not having to 'solve' it
(17:01:40) Alexandre_Orion: we can't
(17:01:49) CryojenX: Well put.
(17:01:58) Keladry: just because something is impossible doesn't make the attempt not worth it
(17:02:05) Proteus: you do know it, you just don't know that you know.
(17:02:10) CryojenX: Sometimes, I find my entire vocabulary isn't available to me simultaneously. :D
(17:03:04) Proteus: forest for the trees
(17:03:33) Rosalyn_J: I'm lost
(17:03:52) Tellahane: the symbolism and metaphors are strong with this group
(17:04:39) Rosalyn_J: I'm more of a concrete person
(17:04:57) Alexandre_Orion: but, Ros ... there is no concrete to be had
(17:05:21) Rosalyn_J: well...there are some who would tend to disagree
(17:05:24) CryojenX: Know the force only by feeling it, not by thinking it.
(17:05:32) Keladry: there is if you consider things in terms of a frame of reference, you need a starting point
(17:05:34) Alexandre_Orion: symbols are never adequate to re-present the transcendent
(17:05:53) Alexandre_Orion: then go from allegory to symbol
(17:06:05) Alexandre_Orion: but never try to bust the symbol down to a simple sign
(17:06:36) Alexandre_Orion: that way, you just end up with a simulacrum
(17:07:41) CryojenX: I'm used to many of those words being used as interchangable, that will take some getting used to discriminating separate meanings for them
(17:08:44) CryojenX: I suppose I could use a good class in semantics
(17:09:15) Rosalyn_J: I got a lot to learn
(17:10:24) Alexandre_Orion: Anyway ... I feel as though I'm done ...
