God(s)

Marela wrote:

Twsoundsoff wrote:
The second realization we should get from the Second Law of Thermodynamics is that since all matter and energy tend irreversibly toward maximum randomness, and since the universe is not maximally random today, it cannot have been tending that direction forever. It has only been tending that way for a limited time. This means that matter and energy are not eternal; there was a time when they did not exist. This means that there must be something other than matter and energy that is eternal, for nothing comes from nothing, and if nothing exists but matter and energy, then before matter and energy existed there was nothing.

There was a time when they did not exist? Well, another school of thought proposes the fact that the universe exists, just that, it exists, it IS. They propose that this isn't the only universe, that before this one, there was a multitude, one before the other. And after us, there will be more. Matter and energy just change. Now, how did the very first universe get created?

I don't know.

And yes, it is equally difficult to proove the existance of God, as it is to proove non-existance.

Maybe the very fact that we can discuss this/reflect upon this prooves existance?

I don't know. And I have an inkling that it is impossible to proove either way. Maybe it is just like science where some theories cannot be proven right or wrong, they just make sense for the stage science is in at that time. And get revised later on. Maybe it boils down to, does the existance of God make sense?

YES!

Cause and effect apply no matter how many links you put into the chain...and the reason cannot be refuted...I've never seen anyone able to refute these arguments...only offer alternatives with less sceintific base (which is funny as i dont need science for these beliefs in the first place...wierd huh?)

Jon wrote
1. The argument of the unmoved mover (ex motu).
Some things are moved.
Everything that is moved is moved by a mover.
An infinite regress of movers is impossible.
Therefore, there is an unmoved mover from whom all motion proceeds.
This mover is what we call God.


I definitely like this one best, it is the most convincing.

I guess \"female intuition\" does not count as proof?

Marela,

I will never doubt that women are far superior to men in the brains department! But no, intuition, hope, faith, and all the other fetters fo the mind are not what I'm looking for. But thanks for your thoughts!

ok, ok, you all present decent points and I thank you all for them. I feel at this point that PROOF of my inquiry is just not possible, OR maybe I didnt exlpain myself clearly, either way I wish to digress from this issue. I'd rather not make enemies before I make good friends here.

thanks all,

Rick

\"Wise men learn from their enemies.\"
-Aristophanes.

Everyone here puts their ideas forward for them to be tested by fire. If enemies in the unlikely case are made then we have a lot to learn from them too.

tsukimaster wrote:

ok, ok, you all present decent points and I thank you all for them. I feel at this point that PROOF of my inquiry is just not possible, OR maybe I didnt exlpain myself clearly, either way I wish to digress from this issue. I'd rather not make enemies before I make good friends here.

thanks all,

Rick

Questions like this are both natural and also resoundingly only answerable by ones self. Whatever will be will be. It is your choice, exactly as God intended it to be. (lol)

The scientific debate about the existance of God is interesting. But for me, the existance of god is not scientific, it's an act of faith. Faith that the order of the world is not random. Faith that there is something bigger then myself. Im not going to try to convince someone that there is a god, that is a personal decision each of us makes.

My question to you all here, is it faith in god that's important, or that you have faith in something bigger then yourselves that's important?

As for us here, we all have a certain level of faith in jediism. And if that is where your faith stops, then that is your way and I encourage you to explore it. If you have faith in christianity, then I say use it and incoporate it into your jedi existance. It is the same for muslims, pagans, or any other faith, including atheists. And yes, atheists have faith, they have faith that god does not exist. It is what you do with that faith in whatever you believe that matters. Do you use your faith to better society, your community, and youself? Or do you use your faith as a weapon to breed anger and distrust? In the end, that is the question we all must ask ourselves.

All theories I've seen presented in this thread only provide scientific proof according to what humans can percieve and comprehend. Therefore, all science as performed by scientist is not necessarily verifiable on a cosmic scale, only according to human measurments and theories. So, scientific proof (though probably the second best we can come up with) is still not tangible proof. Not to mention Physics is completely based on theroies and calculations created by our own minds. It exludes rules that may exist outside of our understanding. The only real proof is direct contact by each and every individual on a global if not universal scale. And I don't mean, \"I felt his presence in me, and I felt happier because I knew it was God\" I'm talking like \"I saw him, he appeared to me, spoke to me, touched my face and gave me hope, or let me pray at his feet\" sort of stuff. It would still only be proof though, if everybody experienced it.

I do however laugh at the argument that the fact that we can argue this point is proof of God's existance. If anyone can explain this point, please do, because I don't see how it proves anything more than any other act done throughout life. If anything the it should read the fact that we are living is proof of existance, in which case its still no proof. I could use the reverse argument even, that becaue I deficate, and my body produces such waste, that God could not exist.

Have fun with it.

DK

If I may toss in two cents on this topic, seeing how entertaining it has become, at least for me. We could also look at this from the point of view of the Satanist, the LaVey Satanist that is, not the cute little Occult types that we have running around out there.

We could argue, that each and everyone one of us, is \"God\". We can create life, as proven in children, we can take life, as proven on an all to regular basis. We are the only people that have any say, in exactly how we are going to live our lives. \"Gods\".. That's just another point of view for consideration in this.

I however, would like to just say, that so long as you believe, and it doesn't matter what you believe in, then it is real. Be you Satanist, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Asatru, etc etc, it doesn't matter, if you believe it, then to you at least, it is real, and does it really matter to you if anyone else believes it or not?

If you watch the Secret it basically tells you that you make your universe. Well in that case you have to believe in God because you believe in God. It sounds so blind when put this way. A child is often told God exists because it is what their parents believe and a child usually trust most everything their parents say. I have seen gangster types be around someone who took the \"lords name in vain\" and got upset about it. They may not have been raised well but their parents were christian (or other god fearing belief) and so it was instilled in them.

I guess what i am trying to say is that each individual has to prove or disprove religion facts and myths for themselves. I myself have come to the understanding that most \"divine\" beings are either a creation of man to get threw the tough times or to blame (war and hate for ares, love and beauty for aphrodite, etc, or combined - God). As humans many of us, especially in the darkest times of human existance we have needed these forces, before the very word God existed. So we classified usually basic things that happened all the time into beings who could, if prayed to right, be influenced one way or another. I do believe that we go somewhere when we die and who knows, maybe soemone got left behind and did somethings for humanity, got labeled as deity.

In the end, i don't know everything, and neither does anyone, Maybe god exists, or maybe he doesn't, will all find out someday. If he does exist i am prepared to go to a place i will not like. If he doesn't exist and reincarnation does, then i will see you all again someday. And yet if athiests are right then i guess i could just say \"so long.\" Have fun in this journey because you never know where it will end.